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Old 05-14-2012, 04:02 AM   #1
JRTJH
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Towing Fifth Wheel with F150

We've long discussed the merits/pitfalls of towing a fifth wheel with a half ton truck. Some consider it a viable option, some don't. While reading the latest issue of Trailer Life, I ran across an interesting long term test that just began. The technical team at Trailer Life announced a long term test of the Fox Mountin compact fifth wheel. They selected a 2006 Ford F150 Crew Cab Short Bed (5'6") to tow the trailer. Specs on the trailer indicate an empty hitch weight of 1400 lbs, empty axle weight of 6600, GVW of 9500 and gross axle weight of 5200 (x2). The truck is a "used" F150 equipped with proportional brake controller and 7 pin trailer wiring. Specs are: GCWR 15000LBS, max trailer 9200, (with 17" tires and 3.73 rear end). I'm not sure of the exact specs for the truck, I got these from Ford's website, but the truck being used may have 18" tires which would reduce the max trailer weight.

At any rate, we've long debated operating a tow vehicle "at the limit" or "just over the max" and it looks like Trailer Life is going to tackle exactly that situation in their long term test. It will be very interesting to see how the "experts" equip, customize and operate this rig which borders on being "over the limit when loaded."

Stay tuned for information as it is published and, if you subscribe to Trailer Life, check out the June 2012 issue, page 61.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:57 AM   #2
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No matter what the outcome, we'll now have a ton of folks buying big 5th wheels and trying to tow them with their 1/2 ton TVs.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:20 AM   #3
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Given the specs that are now known for both the Ford 150 and the Fox 5th, IF someone were to ask "Can my truck tow this?", what would our answers be and how will they compare to the actual test results? I am also wondering if Trailer Life receives advertising revenue from Ford and what would happen to those funds IF they should find that the Ford truck couldn't safely tow the Fox? Yes, the test results will be interesting.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:52 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
Given the specs that are now known for both the Ford 150 and the Fox 5th, IF someone were to ask "Can my truck tow this?", what would our answers be and how they will compare to the actual test results? I am also wondering if Trailer Life receives advertising revenue from Ford and what would happen to those funds IF they should find that the Ford truck couldn't safely tow the Fox? Yes, the test results will be interesting.
Festus, Based on the specs of the trailer they are testing and the 2006 F150 with a 4 speed transmission and a max trailer weight below the GVW of the Fox trailer. I'd be reluctant to suggest to anyone that it would be a "good match" The newer F150's have markedly increased tow ratings, and payloads up to 2800 lbs. That's an entirely different animal than what they are testing.

We've often said, "You can't increase the axle rating" etc about upgrades. I'm very interested in what TL does to "modify" their test truck to make it more suitable for towing a trailer that apparently outweighs the truck's specs....

Will definitely be an interesting read....... and, as for Ford's sponsorship... Hmmmm there's also dodge and GM sponsorship in TL's advertising budget, so who knows how that will "temper" the outcome (I hope they are truly unbiased)
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:56 AM   #5
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No matter what the outcome, we'll now have a ton of folks buying big 5th wheels and trying to tow them with their 1/2 ton TVs.
I just can't resist..... If a "TON" of folks buy "1/2 ton" trucks, they'll have to buy two trucks each to tow their new 5th wheel...
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:23 AM   #6
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A lot depends on how you define 'the limit.' If the limit is always >>> THE STICKER!!!! <<< regardless of any other considerations then the test is over before it starts, so that obvioulsy is not their criteria. If they are looking at real-world issues then the limiting factor safety-wise usually ends up being the rear axle rating, which is usually determined by rear tire rating. Since my guess is that this combination would be within the ratings of E-range tires then if those are added and appropriate springs and other simple mods are done then the rig probably won't turn into a mushroom cloud or be a particular danger on the road.

But... none of that addresses how much fun the thing would be to actually move down the road and the big difference between a driving experience of quiet confidence vs. white knuckles and a constantly laboring engine is something most of us have experienced. I'm not sure how they are going to factor that last part.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:21 PM   #7
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smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:47 PM   #8
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A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.
Oh absolutely, no argument. I may not have communicated clearly... I wasn't saying that a 3/4 ton or 1-ton or whatever-ton truck is a magical solution, only that marginal setups are more likely to lead to marginal experiences. And yes, sometimes a combo that seems good on paper (especially it it involves a long, heavy trailer) will have an inexplicable problem that involves a lot of investigation to track down. The more capacity you have in the bank the less the likelihood for such an occurrence, but there are never any guarantees.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:52 PM   #9
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smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.
As for me I didn't take smiller's post anywhere close to what your saying here and not sure I get your point. I've had white knuckle experiences with just about anything I ever drove and my worst was with a VW Bug. When I moved from a 1/2 to a 3/4 ton however it wasn't a "constant", white knuckle experience when towing and in fact it was day and night even after numeruous upgrades to the 1/2. The only thing in my book that will eliminate the reving is a Diesel and that was a day/night difference as well. Happy trails
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:51 PM   #10
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smiller, The worst "white knuckle" experience I've had while towing RV's for the considerable time I've been behind the wheel was in a 3/4 ton superduty turbodiesel towing a 34' Holiday Rambler travel trailer. Trailer weight of 7600 lbs with a GVW of 10000 lbs. Properly set up weight distribution hitch, good tires, good sway control and excellent driving conditions on a new stretch of super highway at 65 MPH. A sudden gust of wind, a semi passing at the same time and I was all over the road, trying to control a trailer that desperately wanted to pass my truck. I got it stopped, quite shaken and not really wanting to drive any further. I've never experienced that kind of situation in a half ton truck. (I'm not suggesting it isn't possible, just that I've never experienced it)

So, to suggest that replacing a half ton truck with a 3/4 ton truck somehow will "improve quiet confidence while eliminating white knuckle driving" and decrease laboring engines is just not what I've found to be the situation. A "white knuckle" situation can --and does-- happen in 3/4 ton trucks, in fact, it probably happens regardless of the size of the truck being driven.
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As for me I didn't take smiller's post anywhere close to what your saying here and not sure I get your point. I've had white knuckle experiences with just about anything I ever drove and my worst was with a VW Bug. When I moved from a 1/2 to a 3/4 ton however it wasn't a "constant", white knuckle experience when towing and in fact it was day and night even after numeruous upgrades to the 1/2. The only thing in my book that will eliminate the reving is a Diesel and that was a day/night difference as well. Happy trails
The biggest issues with taking a 1/2 ton to the "Limit" or beyond is that as a rule 1/2 tons are more like "Heavy Duty" Cars, and a 3/4 or 1 ton PU is more like a small big truck.

All 1/2 tons run "semi floating" rear axles where the driving axle is also supporting the payload. If the axle were to break, you will loose the tire and wheel.

Most 3/4 ton and all 1 ton PU use "Full floating" rear axles, this is where the weight of the payload rest on a set of bearings, and all the axles do is just turn the wheels, if you break an axle you just stop moving nothing falls off. These have much more weight carrying capacity.

There are some light duty 3/4 ton PU that still run 6 lug semi floating axles, I tend to stay away from those.

If you stay with in the load margins a 1/2 ton will tow a correctly sized trailer just fine and safely, I have always felt more secure in a 3/4 ton, with a camper or trailer.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:26 PM   #11
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Let's wait and see what the experts at TL have to say about towing with a half ton.

You know, I wonder if the Wright brothers ran up against this much "it'll never work" "it won't get off the ground" "Stick to the tried and true" "Horses don't break down" "that contraption has bicycle parts, it's too light to be safe"

Everyone is entitled to your "OPINION" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the engineers will agree with your "user experience" as the only valid means of reliability. Things change in the process of product improvement. What was true last year, last month yesterday may well be invalid today. Half tons are not what they were 10 years ago, so let's just wait and see what the outcome of the TL test reveals.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:07 AM   #12
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Ha, glad you said that. I tell my BF what is said here or there and what I have asked and most times he is happy that I research stuff and read, but he told me sometimes he wished I didn't cause then I will worry...or he says "don't believe everything you read" lol. I do know that! Depends on so much and when we aren't looking at the stuff/problems and are only reading a iffy detail of it, then the input can be right on or not (if the wrong stuff wasn't detailed).

I do enjoy this place though, although sometimes I am afraid to ask questions. I can't wait to go on a long trip and post a couple of pictures.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:41 AM   #13
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azlee56

There seems to be a mentality (for some) of "I've always done it this way, it works, so it's the only way" Others have a mindset of "It won't work and I'm not willing to reconsider" Still others truly believe "If it's not the BIGGEST, it's not big enough"

Thankfully, most people are reasonable enough to at least listen to the engineers and experts when there is differing data.

Several years ago, the major RV manufacturers were producing small fifth wheels in the 5000 lb/750lb pin weight class. Many of them were perfectly suited for half ton towing. Trucks are now heavier, bigger, engineered to carry more and pull more. It's only reasonable to expect that fifth wheel towing with half tons will evolve. How much is too much? Hopefully this test with TL will lend some more perspective and shed light on how to do it better and safer. However, there always is the possibility that they will find that Fox to be too much for their tow vehicle. It is right on the edge if not slightly over. Time will tell, as the test progresses, whether it is too much trailer or not. Thankfully we live in a place where we can all agree to disagree.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:46 AM   #14
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I have always been good at being at peace with people disagreeing with me. Talking about the weight of things and pulling, a few years ago a group wanted me to go camping with them and I have a buick century and they told me to buy a trailer and pull it with that. I thought 'you all are crazy!' that would be something like a teardrop bed or something.

I wasn't going to be convinced that was safe, no wayyyyyy. lol
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:00 AM   #15
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I do have to admit when I was reading about what can happen if a semi passes you and you have a cross wind at the same moment made me catch my breath. I hate cross winds! (specially in a suburban). I am suppose to pull this thing for the first time in June, and may back out of it yet.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Let's wait and see what the experts at TL have to say about towing with a half ton.

You know, I wonder if the Wright brothers ran up against this much "it'll never work" "it won't get off the ground" "Stick to the tried and true" "Horses don't break down" "that contraption has bicycle parts, it's too light to be safe"

Everyone is entitled to your "OPINION" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the engineers will agree with your "user experience" as the only valid means of reliability. Things change in the process of product improvement. What was true last year, last month yesterday may well be invalid today. Half tons are not what they were 10 years ago, so let's just wait and see what the outcome of the TL test reveals.
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Ha, glad you said that. I tell my BF what is said here or there and what I have asked and most times he is happy that I research stuff and read, but he told me sometimes he wished I didn't cause then I will worry...or he says "don't believe everything you read" lol. I do know that! Depends on so much and when we aren't looking at the stuff/problems and are only reading a iffy detail of it, then the input can be right on or not (if the wrong stuff wasn't detailed).

I do enjoy this place though, although sometimes I am afraid to ask questions. I can wait to go on a long trip and post a couple of pictures.
JRTJH, There are many that safely tow a 5er with a F150, Ram 1500, or Chevy 1500 or any other 1/2 ton TV. the important part is to not push the limits. Many 1/2 ton trucks now days have close to or at 10,000# tow ratings. These can easily pull 8,K to 8.5k loads, and up to 10K just working harder.

What i am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:38 AM   #17
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What I am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.
I think it's true that people naturally tend to 'creep up' in size/weight when selecting an RV and so most of us end near the maximum of our tow vehicle's capacity, and that the 2500/3500-class trucks perform much better when run this way than a light-duty pickup.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:23 AM   #18
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JRTJH, There are many that safely tow a 5er with a F150, Ram 1500, or Chevy 1500 or any other 1/2 ton TV. the important part is to not push the limits. Many 1/2 ton trucks now days have close to or at 10,000# tow ratings. These can easily pull 8,K to 8.5k loads, and up to 10K just working harder.

What i am saying that once the Payload or CGVW are exceeded the risk are greater with a 1/2 ton compared to a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.
Russ, I completely agree with your observations. If you check my signature block, you'll see that I tow with an F150. I've carefully, Very VERY carefully looked at it from every angle I can imagine and I'm convinced there is no difference (other than pin weight) between towing 7200 lbs of bumper hitch trailer and 7200 lbs of fifth wheel. And, as long as the pin weight is within the limits of the truck's GVW, then the only "downside" I can see is the "emblem envy" (for lack of a better term) that some people seem to have when it comes to the numbers 2 or 3 .... Just sayin'...

I can't however wrap my head around your logic regarding safety between the two. To overload an an F250 by 20% can't be "safer" than overloading an F150 by 20%. Both have surpassed the engineering design limits by 20% and are potentially equally unsafe in that condition.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:14 PM   #19
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I don't think it's a safety issue because if you operate within the manufacturer's limits then you're probably going to be reasonably safe. It's just that 1500 and 2500/3500-class trucks tend to get used for different purposes and the manufacturers know it. The 1/2-ton pickup has been immensely popular and has been a good seller for many years but I'd hazard to say that while some of these are worked hard most end up doing primarily passenger duty or occasionally haul light loads. The HD pickups on the other hand are usually bought specifically to work... either for a commercial purpose or to tow an RV or heavy trailer (boat/horse/etc.) of some sort, in other words they are built knowing that they will likely be worked up to their limit and thus endure a very different life than the typical 1/2-ton truck. I know I sure wouldn't own a 2500/3500 if I wasn't going to tow with it, they're more expensive, get worse fuel mileage, and aren't a whole lot of fun to drive. They're built to work hard and as a result often end up performing better in that role.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:38 PM   #20
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I sure hope the Max towing specs for your F150 make more sense than those for my 01 Dodge 2500 Cummins, it has a rather large range.
Based on the owners manual the GCWR can be as low as 16,000# to a high of 21,500# So we have a 5,500# difference based on Transmission, axle ratio, and if is was a SO HO engine.
Where is gets interesting is a 2WD standard cab, Long bed with a 5 speed and either a 3.55 OR 4.10 diff have a 20,000# GCWR, max trailer 14,150#.

The same truck in a 4X4 has the same GCWR of 20,000#, but the trailer drops to 13,700#, about the extra weight of the front drive axle and transfer case, that makes sense.

Now make that truck a Quad cab (extended cab with suicide doors) the GCWR drops to 16,000# and max trailer to 9,300. That makes no since, and really points out that these numbers, other than the Max are some what arbitrary!
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