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Old 11-04-2014, 09:08 AM   #1
mnman
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Wrong size windows installed 2014 Springdale 311REGL

Keystone installed two fixed pane windows on the drivers side slide out that are too small for the rough opening. This caused all four corners on the interior frame to pull away from the wall. The gap is 1/8" between the wall and frame. This caused a gap to form on the upper exterior corners allowing water to run into the wall and damaged the trailer.
When looking at the exterior corner gap I can see the edge of the rough opening just below the flange. The rough opening was cut too large for the window. There should only be 1/8" space all around the window and the rough opening.
Pleasureland RV in St. Cloud Mn claims the window was not centered in the rough opening. That the window was sitting on the bottom of the rough opening. In if this was the case, there would still be enough flange at the top to make contact with the siding. The window manufacture states that 3/8+" of the flange to make contact with the siding.
Keystone make a mistake in cutting the rough opening causing the window to gap in the corners of the frame leading to big time leak and damage.
The dealer refuses to install the correct size windows. I have filed with the BBB, will get a lawyer soon if this is not made right.
Everyone should check the windows in their trailer and good luck dealing with Keystone and the repair dealers.
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Old 11-04-2014, 09:24 AM   #2
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Is it the dealer or Keystone that won't take charge of the situation? Keystone is slow but I've had pretty good luck dealing with them...much of that due to the dealership running point for me.

Take good pictures of the problem(s) that really show the issue. Document who's done what and who said what. I might even go so far as take it to the dealership and have the service manager go thru the explanation while using a handycam to record him (that's what I did on our walkthru with the new RV in March).

When you've done that contact Keystone and ask them at what date should you bring it in for corrective action. Enclose your documentation and advise them that a judge or jury will certainly award you repairs plus damages if they can't get it done.
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Old 11-04-2014, 09:45 AM   #3
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Keep in mind that the framing of Keystone products is done in a jig. There is, I suppose, a remote possibility that the window openings were constructed incorrectly, but the likelihood of that seems unlikely. All construction parameters have tolerances and before taking this to a "judge and jury" it might be in your best interest to locate those construction jig tolerances and measure carefully to ensure that Keystone did, in fact construct the trailer incorrectly.

Remember that Keystone has much larger "legal pockets" and isn't likely to lose a case based on "opinion". Get all the facts and make sure that your RV is incorrectly constructed. Jigs seldom fail, that's why so much of the RV industry is constructed in that manner.

Good Luck
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:09 AM   #4
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Some pics of problem

Window manufacture says gap in corners caused by wrong radius. All four corners inside have gap. Dealer claims radius is correct. No one is explaining why this happened. Why the corner gaps? Why is the top of the rough opening just below the flange on the exterior gap? I'm sick of the whole mess, would never buy anything Keystone or from the dealer. Now to find someone who doesn't know how poorly constructed the trailer is so I can get it off my hands.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:04 AM   #5
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Just to clarify. I said to "tell" them that a judge and jury would surely rule in his favor. That comment was based assuming that the documentation would show irrefutable evidence of a structural problem....and the pic sure looks that way to me. I never said to retain an attorney and I wouldn't for any more money than you're talking about.

It looks like it is a '14 model. Is it not under warranty? Do they say that a window pulling away like that is acceptable on a new model? I would think not. A lot of how things go depends on your dealer...and it sounds like yours might not be the best. Are you dealing with the service manager? If not, do so. If you are, go to the GM or owner.

I would most definitely take it in and make the service manager/GM go through their explanation of why those windows are "normal" on a new RV while filming it. Let them know you will ask Keystone for further assistance if you haven't.

I've owned my Keystone Cougar High Country since the 1st of March. I've had multiple problems, none major, and I've had great assistance from Camping World; both in Lubbock, TX and Tallahassee, FL. Before I got the service dept. in Lubbock on the same page I dealt with Keystone. They definitely aren't fast but they did do the right thing by me and have since.

Run the gauntlet; beat on the doors and jerk some chains. The pic I see tells me only an idiot would tell you everything is OK and it should be unacceptable to the dealership and Keystone as well as yourself.

I don't think you should unload the unit on some unsuspecting buyer. That's just not right. If you are upfront with them you will not get top dollar as you should. It's to your benefit to get your hackles up, pound on the table and get the repairs done. Many times "nice" is just a good way to find yourself not taken seriously. Just my 2c.
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:17 PM   #6
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It is a shame. A good dealer would go to bat for you and get everything repaired under warrenty. This dealer does not seem to care about their customer or if the next one comes through the door or not.
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Old 11-04-2014, 01:26 PM   #7
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Dealers can/will only do warranty repairs that are authorized by the manufacturer. In this case, you can't fault the dealer. Maybe they could be more aggressive with Keystone, but since I'm not there in the service department, I can't comment.
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Old 11-04-2014, 01:47 PM   #8
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Reading the original post I don't think the OP has talked to Keystone. If so, it sounds more like a dealership issue. From my experiences at the last two dealerships Keystone relies heavily on the dealership providing them information, documentation and, as I was told in Tallahassee, pictures, pictures, pictures. If the dealership is not doing everything possible the repair may not be authorized....although with that kind of damage I can't fathom how that could happen. Sounds like a failure to fully involve Keystone by the dealership and the OP may have to take that on as his own responsibility to get this resolved. They have responded to my complaints in the past albeit slowly.
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Old 11-04-2014, 02:49 PM   #9
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Given the picture that was posted, I can't imagine any dealership not removing, cleaning and reinstalling the window with no questions asked. There is obviously a problem that needs repair. I wonder if the OP may have approached the dealership with a statement that he wants the windows replaced rather than the slide leak repaired, and that is the root cause for the delay?

It seems that the dealer is pushing off the repair rather than simply fixing the windows, that is, if the OP asked for them to be repaired. If he went to the dealer insisting that the windows be "replaced with the correct size" then I'd suppose the dealer has contacted Keystone stating that, "The customer is insisting the window size be corrected" and they are awaiting Keystone's decision whether to ship two new windows of a slightly larger size to replace what is currently installed.

I don't think (I could be wrong) that Kenroe or Hehr build windows in incremental sizes of 1/2" or smaller, so I do not think that a window to "exactly fit the opening" would be available (assuming the "called for window" is not the correct size). To "upsize" would probably mean rebuilding the slide frame window openings to fit the "next size larger windows.

Slide windows aren't "rocket science" and they are built with a sufficient flange (lip) to fit a wide range of window openings. On Keystone RV's those window frame openings are "constructed in a jig" and the slide wall opening is "cut with a template". The jigs for the forward and the rear slide walls are different, so it would entail two separate components to be "oversized" the same way at two different construction areas. Then assembled on the same trailer, a "chance happening" that is very remote.It seems unique that this slide and these windows are the only ones that have been reported as "too small". Even stranger that two would be "oversized by error" on the same slide and not on any of the hundreds of others that have been produced on the same assembly line. I suppose it's possible for this to occur, but very unlikely, I'd think.

To the OP: Did you ask the dealership to repair your leak? Or did you insist the dealership locate and install a different size window? Has the dealer attempted to reseal/reinstall and reposition the windows? Or has any repair been delayed pending Keystone's response about the window size?

If you insisted on replacement windows, you're probably in for a very lengthy delay for the manufacturer to build a custom window, that is, IF Keystone will approve the special build order.
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Old 11-04-2014, 03:12 PM   #10
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You know, on a stick house you leave a gap all around a window when you install it so that any movement of the wall doesn't bend/break it. From what the OP said the dealer said the window was sitting on the bottom ledge. I would assume that shouldn't be the case. I'm also wondering if gapping the window in the opening as it should be and re-sealing it wouldn't fix the problem? As JRTJH said, it may all be in the way it was presented to the dealer but I can't imagine any dealership just letting this kind of problem walk off. Re-gapping and re-sealing would only fix the window and leak but there would still be the interior damage.
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Old 11-04-2014, 03:20 PM   #11
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That's my point exactly. Without being privy to the conversation the customer/dealer had, it's hard to know what the customer instructed the dealer to do. So, I find it very hard to believe that any dealership would leave a window with such and obvious leak in an unrepaired condition. Depending on what transpired, the interior damage may or may not be an issue that resulted before the dealership got involved, so that's also difficult to judge for proper corrective action on the part of Keystone.

There's just too much "missing" to know which way to think this needs to go for resolution.
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:41 PM   #12
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Being a tech, I can understand the dealers reluctance to do ANYTHING without Keystones authorization. I agree there is too much info missing in this thread to know, but if the dealership does work and it's not authorized, they don't get paid.
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:09 PM   #13
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Chuckster, I know you are right about that. I tend to push pretty hard at times and I have been told at every turn that the dealership can't/won't do anything without Keystone's approval....hence, my unending communications with Keystone when something is awry
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:42 PM   #14
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From looking at the not so perfect pic I see nothing wrong with the rough out. It looks like a pretty adequate expansion gap to me and you need that or your windows will explode
From the pic it looks like someone forgot to silicone the window before they fitted it in.
On the inside of your unit is there a bunch of loose screws on the window surround that hold the window in
I think a lawsuit for a few easy to fix windows is a waste of money but that's your thing not mine
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:27 PM   #15
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Different manufacturers will install/seal windows in different fashions. I have seen butyl tape, foam and rubber. Not all manufacturers use silicone on the outside flange, and those that do usually do just the top and side edges. Can't say I've ever seen silicone used on the face of the flange before install, as it could cause some severe damage to the exterior finish if the window were removed.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:52 PM   #16
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My question is post #1 says the RV dealer says windows are not centered in the cut out. Will not the owner or dealer center the windows and after that see if they still leak? and or have correct fit. Would the dealer need a OK from Keystone to do that? I guess I am saying that unless or until the windows have been removed does any one know what the real problem could be?
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:07 PM   #17
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I suppose a portion of the work a dealership is willing to do is based on their relationship with the Keystone district manager and their past experience with payments/approvals from Keystone.

Examples: If the dealership has a long history of being paid for "minor repairs" such as resealing windows, I'd suspect they would do the work and apply to Keystone for payment. But if they have been disapproved for resealing windows almost every time they submit a claim, I'm sure they would "wait with caution" for approval before doing the work. Of course, a major consideration in the decision must include the customer's satisfaction and keeping him happy for future sales, etc. Depending on the cost/manhours required to do the job, the dealership may well feel it's best to simply write off the cost of repair vs losing future customer sales/referrals.

In the past, I've had RV's that needed "simple repairs" that were done the day I took the RV in and I've had the RV sit on the dealer's lot for a week or more "waiting for approval" before something as simple as readjusting the door that sticks when closing it.

So, I don't think it's an "automatic wait and see" but rather other factors render the decision to repair or to wait one that's pretty much a case by case consideration. There may well be a number of service department supervisors who simply say, "Don't pick up a wrench without Keystone's approval" but I don't believe that's the situation in every service department. Certainly it's not that way at CW in Houghton Lake nor at Brewbaker's RV in Onaway, MI.
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckster57 View Post
Different manufacturers will install/seal windows in different fashions. I have seen butyl tape, foam and rubber. Not all manufacturers use silicone on the outside flange, and those that do usually do just the top and side edges. Can't say I've ever seen silicone used on the face of the flange before install, as it could cause some severe damage to the exterior finish if the window were removed.
OOOPPSSS!!! I didn't mean to use the word silicone, my mind was on installing windows on teardrops that I build I use silicone as it doesn't leave residue or mar the surface on any of the selected finishes that I use.
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:24 AM   #19
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The repair dealer will not provide me with information as to what was found when the window was removed. All I have been told was that the window was not centered in the opening, it was resting on the bottom of the opening. Later he did state the rough opening should be 1/4" larger than the window frame. If the window is shimmed up 1/8" to center it, that still doesn't explain why you could see the edge of the rough opening just below the exterior flange.
I don't think the window being off center, not raised up 1/8" at the bottom, would also cause all 4 corners of the interior ring to not seal with the wall. As per the window install instr. this can be caused by the wrong radius in the rough opening.
It doesn't really matter what Keystone and the dealer does to repair this, I will be left with a water damaged trailer. This is the fault of Keystone. To make this right Keystone should replace the trailer with a new one.
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:29 AM   #20
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If the windshield leaked in your car and damaged parts of the interior would you demand a whole new car?

I agree if there is water damage to the interior walls, those panels should be changed. By this point the floor is probably dried out, so new floor covering may be called for. New trailer? I wouldn't count on it. But that's just my opinion.
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