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Old 03-28-2015, 04:06 PM   #1
ddibon
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 12
New Raptor issues. Comments thoughts?

Hi all. I purchased a 2014 Keystone Raptor 410LEV from Tiara RV in Elkhart, IN. I rate Tiara RV executives very poor.
I expected a degree of skull sweat and screw turning regardless of what vehicle is purchased. I have not yet been able to enjoy this.
Regarding Tiara RV.
*During walk through after purchase the crown molding of a slider fractured when the Tiara employee left a panel door open and closed the slides. I was told no ability to replace or repair the molding existed as its no longer manufactured.
*The folding table hinge is separated from both leaves and fails. The cause is the screws are impossible to embed into wood. A space exists. This is impossible to fix as the table and island is no longer produced.
*I hired a local 53 year experienced man to inspect and drive the trailer off the lot to check it out. The trailer brakes were locked despite proper safety pin insertion. This issue vanished into the trailer brakes not working at all. My truck checked out fine.
Some kind of conflicted exchange occurred but resulted in an on site visit.
The cause of the trailer brakes was shorted wiring at the pinbox connection. Crimped and heat shrunk wire connectors were absent and bare wire was looped around screw posts. When tightend, the wires split and multiple shorts occurred. It seems fixed and operated well since then.
Suring haul home trailer autoleveling with generator on resulted in a time out despite leveling properly. The slides extened, however no further use of jacks or slides was then possible.
I was stranded 4 days until I could recieve field service.
Keystone was unable to provide workable manual overrides, though 2 manuals were sent to me via email and reference to a YouTube video. Neither the Oklahoma mobile specialist or I could determine what kind of mechanism or manual ovwrride existed.
Keystone was unable to disclose which of three mechanisms was in fact installed on my trailer. The first person said none was indicated..
Ultimately Keystone approved the mobile visit with $150 towards the over $650 dollar bill and 4 days stranded.
The mobile tech found a melted relay switch. He'd never seen this before. He believed cause to be a single undersized battery with a broken positive terminal. He had me replace it with 2 deep cycle marine batteries.
I subsequently arrived in Austin and had the same experience. Slides stuck, no jacks. All occurring while hooked up to 50 amp rv park power.
The same melting of the relay box happened. New flame and smoking of the hydraulic motor occured.
Both new batteries became hot. No breakers, fuses, GFI or reset buttons tripped. First sign of malfunction was smoke and flame!
*Tiara does not return calls.
*Keystone seemed interested and then had whatever resolution was sought was considered voluntary rejection of all warranties. After supplying a requested narrative to them no response or calls from Keystone occurred for a few days.
* I found a local specialist enjoying a long and good relationship with Keystone.
*Keystone affirmed my concerns and agreed with choice of specialist. No commitments to remedy exist shielding me from additional multithousand dollar issues.
*I am finding symptoms and not causes. Heat sufficient to melt relay boxes and flame metal motors occurs also causes electrical damages impossible to map.
For Instance, the heat generated radiates throughout other wires. The visible wiring unrelated to the relay box or motor demonstrates evidence of heat exposure. It is impossible to inspect the course of the wiring without deconstructing the trailer. Skip melts sharp wire turns or merging may occur.
A fix but no ability to rely upon the electrical system exists. No ability to isolate or shut down this circuit exists. No failsafe fuses, breakers, gfis or switches to trip exist.
*Does anyone have comments or know of similar issues? I will report my experiences with Keystone subsequent to this post.
Because of the dangerous issues I am unable to address a multitude of other issues such as the dealer destroyed molding and failing table hinge. The TVS and sound systems are swapped with off label older sets. The refrigerator is good. The microwave is substandard but is as described. A bent left rear exterior molding was ignored but does not impact function. All of the external lights work. The kitchen faucet seal leaks but I can fix that. Grey tank 2 does not empty.
Multiple self tapping screws were lost from the trailer exterior. i zip yes these things until I can replace with better ones, perhaps bolts and thread sealer.
The mattresses in the king master and queen toyhauler space are not as indicated. Mattresses of the quality indicated were everywhere at Tiara except in my purchase.
None of the drawer, cabinet or door holds maintain during transit.
Tiara offered to sell a combo washer/dryer for $880 dollars if purchased at the time of taking possession of the new RV. Three unamed men came out of offices and declined to do the sale. They would not identify themselves and walked off after instructing me to leave.
I recieved a call from a Keystone senior owner relations manager primary assistant. Keystone remains noncommittal but now affirms the significance of the described problems, as well as my approach.
Unlike automobile sales where warranty repairs and out of pocket customers are equally treated, no such thing exists in the RV world. No appointment times are available for warranty work.
One is required to leave the vehicle at an authorized business parking lot. All warranty work is performed on an "as time is available" schedule. In Austin the earliest is four to six weeks minimum. I have waited 10 days for urgent mobile service.
I live full time in my RV. Significant safety issues perhaps affecting other Keystone products exist. I expected a greater and more enthusiastic degree of customerr dialog.
Instead, I've experienced increasing marginalization and unresponsivness. No dialog, much less commitment to make things right exists.
Perhaps this may change after the RV Specialist arrives Tuesday. I was reassured that the executive calling me wanted to write down all of my experiences and observations to present to the Keystone Executive design team.
I remain concerned a recall level major safety issue exists. I think that would be horrible and hope not.
I don't know if the problems described require a vehicle exchange. I'd rather not, but also understand at times no other option is possible.
I want a life long good partnership with Keystone. I very much wish to change the atmosphere from conflicted to cooperative. I want to be adopted and not dismissed, cared about rather than turned away and most importantly, enjoy partnered dialog towards issue resolution to a predictable and safe degree
Personally, I'd get this trailer off the road, replace it at no cost and then have the design team autopsy it.
I'd imform the Keystone legal team potential safety issues requiring immediate large scale recall may exist.
Identifying the cause (wiring gauge mismatch, defective motors, etc.) and prophylactically installing a reset switch and a circuit isolation switch seems obvious.
To me it remains very simple: A problem first manifesting as jack and slide malfunction occurs with intense heat and flame in a closed environment around hydrogen from batteries, propane gas and the generator fuel line.
I remain hopeful to report resolution and a quality keystone response.
Anybody else with similar issues? Any advice, thoughts or insights?
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Old 03-28-2015, 04:26 PM   #2
chuckster57
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Welcome to the forum

I am truly sorry your experiencing the problems your having. I can tell you that threatening legal action right off the start is a good way to get put off even more.

Any dealer other than the one you purchased from is not under any obligation to do any warranty work, and while many refuse, it's common for a non customer to go to the back of the line.

I find it hard to believe that materials used in a 2014 unit aren't made anymore, but it seems like one constant is change.

I hope your issues are taken care of, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a quick fix. The RV season is ramping up, it takes time to get approval from the factory, then order parts, and then get the unit into a bay and on a techs work flow. My advice for what its worth:

Take a deep breath, stay calm and deal with whoever in a civilized fashion. Give them a chance.
__________________

2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:45 PM   #3
ddibon
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 12
Thank you. I agree. I do not see any benefit with legal or other threats. My goal is somehow changing the atmosphere to one of cooperative dialog and care sharing over liability shifting.

I will absorb the discomforts of a less than average purchase experience. In other words, I don't give a hoot about secondary impact such as what I've already spent, or any of the quality substitutions or cosmetic damages present.

I absolutely do seek resolution in a manner permitting safe operation. I consider issues such as brake malfunctioning and electrical flaming without triggering failsafe extraordinarily dangerous.

I also grasp Keystone is not nefarious or malicious. When construction components are ordered there easily can be subtle sourcing issues escaping notice but yielding impact only under certain specific conditions. I understand other trailers made with the same components could escape unmasking systemic problems.

However, that is not my situation. I am perfectly fine with Keystone addressing issues internally provided prompt and courteous remedy is available.

For the moment a degree of interest from Keystone appears present. This far, no e of the information I've provided to them or the dealership results in any affirmative commotments. The atmosphere of liability shifting and obfuscated accountability continues to occur.

My trailer cost more than my high end truck. The automobile industry is graduating past their long history of deliberate harms to customers who purchased a "lemon". Unfortunately, it took some dramatic litigation and federal intervention for this to occur.

The RV industry can and should learn from this. I personally am unwilling to accept excuses as reasons. Likewise, I will never blindside anyone. Yet this is exactly what is occurring to me.

Perhaps my approach is overly assertive. I'm happy to consider others input such as yours. I've not threatened anything with the dealership or Keystone. Yet they have both seemed to line up and double down. I find this default customer treatment ridulously harmful and ultimately contributing to escalation over resolution.

I'm in my horizon years. I live full time in my trailer. I am multi degreed and a retired medical school professor of medicine.

Additionally, I am intimately related to the primary sourcing experts for all of the components used to construct, maintain and customize RVs. I'm not a veteran RV owner, yet enjoy deep communications throughout the industry.

I've accepted one of those contacts to back channel communicate with Keystone that I am not a customer who remotely desires conflict and that I am already accepting expenses otherwise not needed. I just want my home safe. And to no small degree, I want to know I am dealing with a company who internally has proper policy, procedure, culture and authority to make right what often is the unavoidable storm of a difficult situation.

I want a partnership with Keystone, not a file of individual entries made in the context of somehow finding a way to blame a customer or failing that, avoid responsibility by blaming component suppliers.

Towards that end I want to experience joining of shared interests. Im certain many have encountered issues best managed by taking a limited hit and then moving on without ever considering the purchase of an RV or trailer again. I am not one of those people.
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Old 03-28-2015, 07:15 PM   #4
sourdough
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It appears you live in Austin yet you purchased your RV in Indiana...is that right? If so, your best bet with dealing with Keystone and getting stellar service...is with the dealer in Indiana that sold you the unit. Keystone has been super, and I will say again..super, with us. It all has to do with my dealership and the service manager that has been doing this for over 20 years. You, unfortunately, appear to be one of those "lost in the void" due to where you purchased. Just my thoughts based on what I could gather from your posts.
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Old 03-28-2015, 09:39 PM   #5
ddibon
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin TX
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Appreciate it. So far I do not have criticism about Keyatone themselves. That is why I bought one. I involved them only after failed dealership interface.

I've made more than best effort with the dealership. Three weeks there once and one week a second time. Virtually no remedy effort was made beyond the personal efforts of the service manager. I respect him.

My strong impression is that the owners throw their managers under the bus. This is not a small dealership at all. They now do not return phone calls or respond to writing.

My hope is Keystone has an internal process to influence the dealership or otherwise incentive them. No evidence of that yet.

I strongly differ with your opinion that only the dealership of purchase is accountable. Bullying of customers who purchase vehicles intended to travel by requiring only original dealership service is both illegal and entirely unacceptable. Keystone clearly has the leading role to effect a difference of culture.

No acceptable customer dismissal or blame for original faulty equipment exists whatsoever. Warranty coverage offered only as a moving target is equally unacceptable.

Where I purchase my unit and where I currently am is irrelevant to the safety issues and stranding of a customer because of your product failure.

Please tell me just how in the hell is a customer supposed to get a unit to ANY dealership or authorized warranty service center such as Camping World, much less the original dealership.

Are you willing to transport a unit with a documented history of brake failure and lockups, inoperative jacks, inoperable slides and recurrently melting and flaming relay switch and motors?

I respectfully and strongly disagree with your premise of blaming...Regardless of the blame.

I am not blaming. I expect and should enjoy the same good customer relations thst you do. I've no history of product complaints or dissatisfaction after purchases. I've been fortunate.

I'm glad to hear of yours and others good experiences. In fact, it is very reassuring. Customer reviews are the main reason I purchased from Keystone. Likewise, from Tiara RV.

I'm speaking to both Tiara RV and Keystone business character, thst is, what choices do they make when under pressure from selling a defective and unsafe unit. No part of me believes this was done intentionally. That is stupid. Whomever bears ultimate accountability is of no concern to me.

All I want is a predictably safe, operational and fun RV to use just as you.
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