RV Industry Service concerns

[Rex1vt]

Just keep the cream and throw away the milk. No way someone needing service will ever buy again, and if they did they certainly would not consider someone that gave them good service in the past.You may not like the answer but it is the truth.Goodwill is way over rated.

[sourdough]

Although I'm a type A+ person, have little patience and tend to get pretty harsh pretty quickly, I don't know that I can fault Keystone, or my dealership, during our ownership of our trailer.

We bought a new 2014 Cougar High Country 319RLS on 2-26-14. We did a thorough walk thru using the PDI from this forum. Since that time we've had multiple issues - small I suppose. On our first trip to FL between Shreveport and Jacksonville we hit some terribly rough interstate. When we parked in Mobile that evening we found that the bathroom door had completely come off, broke out the wooden trim around the top, broke off the roller/hangars on the top and the glide at the bottom. My inspection found the glide had been installed improperly from the factory. Instead of two mounting holes on the bottom they had cut one off, leaving one hole - which was split, so they could mount it on the trim around the door facing. It had broken, freeing the door to bounce around, broke the roller/hangars etc. because there were no stops installed at each end of the rollers. When we got to FL CW in Tallahassee worked with me to get the rollers and glide and I installed them correctly (you could see where the factory installer had drilled multiple holes trying to figure out where to put the hangars). I also properly installed the new glide by fabricating a new support and using both screws as well as adding new stops and re-attaching the track; all in the park where we were staying. Score: poor work from factory, great support from dealer.

We've had a blown out shower handle, ignitor failure on one burner of the stove, a remote failure that was probably my fault, slides adjusted and lubed, front cap painted (which the service manager observed and asked if he could get it approved for me), new flooring supports under the shower because they weren't adequate, an improperly placed fuse from the factory, a new ball on my hitch because it was installed improperly by the dealership and now it is in to check the ignitor on the furnace. Sounds like a lot of stuff but none major. CW has gone to bat for me on every count. As far as poor workmanship all I have to say is this; I have had two new custom homes built by the supposed best builders at the time. I can only wish that my punch list for repairs for them was as short as it is for the RV. Also keep in mind that these are built to be light and affordable. With that come some concessions. You aren't buying a 3-4-5 hundred thousand dollar stick home. You're buying a rolling house that gets beat up constantly with a 2" compressed wall. You just have to try to keep things in perspective I guess.

[carwheel_09]

I'm a new Montana owner, bought a 2014 3610RL in November. Towed it home from Texas and when I got her home I found "frame flex" in the pin box area. Generator compartment had separated from the front wall. Going to take it next week, been making a punch list of what needs repair. Most of it is minor but the frame sure isn't. If I could figure out how to post a pic of let y'all have a look.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by carwheel_09

If I could figure out how to post a pic of let y'all have a look.

Two different ways:
1) If the file is on your computer, look above the box where you type your reply and you'll see a paperclip. Click on it and follow the prompts.

2) Upload to an online photo hosting site, many are free. Then simply follow their instructions for copying the direct link. Once that is copied, look above the box for the square with the mountain in it, click on it and follow the prompts.

[mark1228]

Originally Posted by Rex1vt

Just keep the cream and throw away the milk. No way someone needing service will ever buy again, and if they did they certainly would not consider someone that gave them good service in the past.You may not like the answer but it is the truth.Goodwill is way over rated.

Well I would suggest that every dealer that performs warranty work is giving away lots of goodwill. I did not say we won't service units bought somewhere else, I said we won't do warranty work on units bought somewhere else. In my experience, many of the customers that want warranty work done on a unit they purchased somewhere else are very demanding. Often times some of the items they believe are warranty will not be covered by the manufacturer. In the past when we did try to do warranty on these units we often times ended up with unhappy customers anyway and we lost money. I am in business to make money and yes all RV dealers are in business to make money. If warranty was a profit center we would all welcome it with open arms.

[Festus2]

Let me say at the outset that I know very little about how a business operates and I know even less about how businesses deal with warranty issues. I am guessing that there is some kind of financial arrangement between the manufacturer - in this case Keystone - and the dealership. I am also assuming that the dealership gets reimbursed or somehow paid by Keystone for warranty work. If you didn't get paid, why would you do the work?

Could you please explain to me how performing warranty work "is a money loser for the dealer"? You have stated that you "don't make any money". So I am wondering if you are "in the business to make money" why would you take on warranty work that "is a loser for the dealer"?

For me, an non-business person, this doesn't make any sense. So, please enlighten me.

You also indicate that, by doing warranty work, you are "giving away lots of good will". Does this mean that you are doing warranty work out of the goodness of your heart even though you are losing money?

I'm also puzzled by your comment that folks who did not purchase their RV at your dealership and who come to you for warranty work are "very demanding". Are they more demanding that people who bought their RV from you? What would explain the difference between these two groups of people? It seems to me that both groups come to you with something that needs "fixed" or replaced because it is either broken and doesn't work or it needs to be replaced.

Again, I am not a business person and have no experience or background in this area and am looking for an explanation about how your RV dealership and perhaps others as well lose money on warranty work.

[chuckster57]

Here's what I know:

Dealership is paid a set rate for warranty repair, and the manufacturer sets the time paid for most every repair. If the repair takes longer than the allotted time, the dealer has to resubmit and is subject to denial on the extra time.

As an example. I had to replace a wall in the bunk portion of a motorhome. Factory gave me 1 hour to complete. I had to document with pictures what I felt it would take to complete the task (3.0 hours) and the factory ended up giving me 2.5, actual time spend was 2.47 hours.

Another example. I had to replace a set of window shades. Factory required a picture of the data tag which required removal of the shades. Factory paid .2 for the total repair and refused to authorize anymore. Takes 5-10 minutes just to remove shade and get the picture.

Depending on how efficient a tech is, the dealership can make or lose money in warranty repairs. Then comes the subject of pay. Flat rate techs can make good money if the dealership is busy. Hard to keep a good tech if the dealership is slow in the off season, and I am thankful I get an hourly wage. Good for me in slow times, good for the dealer in busy times.

Hope this helps shed a little light.

[Festus2]

Chuck -
Thanks for the explanation - it does help. From what you wrote, it appears as though a dealership can make a profit if:
1) the techs are "good at their job",
2) the manufacturer's set pay rate to the dealership is high enough and reasonable,
3) the dealership is "busy"

If the manufacturer's set pay rate is equal to or more than what the dealership's costs are in wages and materials, then it seems like the dealership would either break even or make a profit. Or is this an incorrect assumption and doesn't happen in the real business world?

If a dealership is depending upon their tech's efficiency as to whether or not it will make a profit or suffer a loss on warranty work, then wouldn't it follow that the dealership would quickly show the door to "inefficient techs"? Why keep someone on the payroll who is losing money for you? If a dealership doesn't make any money from warranty work, then shouldn't they take a good look at their tech's ?????

Do automobile dealerships also lose money on warranty work they perform? Or is just the RV industry that does?

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Festus2

Chuck -
Thanks for the explanation - it does help. From what you wrote, it appears as though a dealership can make a profit if:
1) the techs are "good at their job",
2) the manufacturer's set pay rate to the dealership is high enough and reasonable,
3) the dealership is "busy"

If the manufacturer's set pay rate is equal to or more than what the dealership's costs are in wages and materials, then it seems like the dealership would either break even or make a profit. Or is this an incorrect assumption and doesn't happen in the real business world?

If a dealership is depending upon their tech's efficiency as to whether or not it will make a profit or suffer a loss on warranty work, then wouldn't it follow that the dealership would quickly show the door to "inefficient techs"? Why keep someone on the payroll who is losing money for you? If a dealership doesn't make any money from warranty work, then shouldn't they take a good look at their tech's ?????

Do automobile dealerships also lose money on warranty work they perform? Or is just the RV industry that does?

Warranty work is basically subsistence, in many cases what the manufacturer pays barely covers the actual costs of the work, with nothing for profit. If you have all of your techs tied up on warranty work you can't make money on the regular service work that pays the bills. I have also seen some warranty work take up a bay at my local CW for several months, that bay is not available for regular service work, so it is costing them money. I am sure they aren't being reimbursed by the manufacturer of that unit for the loss of use of the bay. Some manufacturers are better than others on being realistic.

Auto dealerships don't like warranty work either, but that is a bit of a different situation. I have seen cars built and I have seen RV's built. Cars are usually built better by better skilled workers. There are exceptions.

Aaron

[chuckster57]

Its my understanding that the labor rate is negotiated with the factory and can be influence by the proof of RVIA registered/certified techs.

The dealership has to pay a per tech fee for the registration, and once the tech passes a series of courses receives a certificate. Then the dealership has to pay per tech for the certification test ($345.00 IIRC), and if the tech fails there is a retest fee.

Some states have a "right to work" law meaning you can't let an employee go for any reason. I can tell you that there have been times that I have been handed a repair order with say 12 items and when all is said and done, we have come out on the short end. Then there are those R/O's that we come up, so it's a matter of how many losers to winners you have.

If a dealership invests money in their techs then its another cost to let them go. Then there's the matter of tools. In Calf. If the employer requires a tech to have their own tools, they have to pay at least 2X the minimum wage, so what do you do? Buy tools or pay your techs.

I have no idea about the auto service industry.

[gearhead]

I swore I wasn't going to comment anymore on this subject but.....if there is no money in warranty work why did my independent repair shop jump on my broke Dometic refridge like a hungry dog on a bone? I asked them after the repair if Dometic paid them fairly? "Sure, we did well on it." That, after my selling mega-dealer couldn't fix it in 2 tries.
It's pure mis-management. Bad work flow procedures and bad supervision.
I hope I'm never 500 miles from home needing warranty work. I'll drag that Montana back to Houston on it's axles I guess.
And..."right to work" is very different than that in Texas. Right to work means you don't have to join a union to work in a union facility. Hired at will in Texas means you can be fired for any reason your employer determines. If you're not union, you're hired at will in Texas.

[chuckster57]

I probably have the right to work/hire at will thing wrong. I was a state employee for 25+ yrs and now I'm working in the private sector so labor law was of no concern.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by gearhead

I swore I wasn't going to comment anymore on this subject but.....if there is no money in warranty work why did my independent repair shop jump on my broke Dometic refridge like a hungry dog on a bone? I asked them after the repair if Dometic paid them fairly? "Sure, we did well on it." That, after my selling mega-dealer couldn't fix it in 2 tries.
It's pure mis-management. Bad work flow procedures and bad supervision.
I hope I'm never 500 miles from home needing warranty work. I'll drag that Montana back to Houston on it's axles I guess.
And..."right to work" is very different than that in Texas. Right to work means you don't have to join a union to work in a union facility. Hired at will in Texas means you can be fired for any reason your employer determines. If you're not union, you're hired at will in Texas.

Perhaps the independent has lower overhead? Lots of variables, obviously his techs were better than the mega dealer. FWIW I asked at my local CW how many of the techs were RVIA certified and got a blank look and no answer. I do know that an independent dealer that I deal with about 2 hours from my house has several, they also happen to be right across the freeway from a CW. I also realize that not all CW's are created equal. If you find a good repair shop, support them, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Right to work and work at will are two different things, but they are quite often related.

Aaron

[gearhead]

I promise my last comment....lol...my independent shop is parts and repair only. No RV showroom. They live and die on repairs. They are family owned and several "employees" are family.
My infamous mega dealer is not CW, but they are right next door to each other.
I think we're on the same page about the labor issue. I spent 35 years in a huge Houston refinery/petro-chemical facility. Half that time active on the labor side of the table, then went to the "dark side" the 2nd half of my career.

[jsmith948]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

Right to work and work at will are two different things, but they are quite often related.

Aaron

Gearhead has it right in regard to 'Right to Work'....except that it should be more accurately renamed "Right to work FOR LESS $"
Just the humble opinion of a retired Teamster

[carwheel_09]

I'm going to throw my two cents in. I also purchased from that infamous mega dealer. I will never again buy from any dealer except a family owned business. With the big boys I got lost it their shuffle from sales to service.

[NotyetMHCowner]

Originally Posted by jsmith948

Gearhead has it right in regard to 'Right to Work'....except that it should be more accurately renamed "Right to work FOR LESS $"
Just the humble opinion of a retired Teamster

AMEN!!

Current 20+ year member of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

[sourdough]

I think the union, non-union argument is better left for another place. Having been in a union, and in an leadership position in our local, then in management as a sr. exec trying to manage a large business and deal with a union, including negotiating contracts, I have some very explicit observations about both situations; none which belong here.

As far as the warranty vs pay issue I kind of look at warranty work as something similar to Medicare and the rates they negotiate with doctors. Low, probably too low in many instances, but enough to keep food on the table. I understand a dealership's reluctance to take on the warranty work if they have higher paying work available. On the other hand, if they sell the unit and are an authorized dealer they are obligated to do the work as quickly and efficiently as possible. I think the way a particular dealership views that obligation dictates how, or if, you get warranty work done. Again, you have to look for that good dealer that takes care of you after the sale.

[mark1228]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I think the union, non-union argument is better left for another place. Having been in a union, and in an leadership position in our local, then in management as a sr. exec trying to manage a large business and deal with a union, including negotiating contracts, I have some very explicit observations about both situations; none which belong here.

As far as the warranty vs pay issue I kind of look at warranty work as something similar to Medicare and the rates they negotiate with doctors. Low, probably too low in many instances, but enough to keep food on the table. I understand a dealership's reluctance to take on the warranty work if they have higher paying work available. On the other hand, if they sell the unit and are an authorized dealer they are obligated to do the work as quickly and efficiently as possible. I think the way a particular dealership views that obligation dictates how, or if, you get warranty work done. Again, you have to look for that good dealer that takes care of you after the sale.

Originally Posted by Festus2

Let me say at the outset that I know very little about how a business operates and I know even less about how businesses deal with warranty issues. I am guessing that there is some kind of financial arrangement between the manufacturer - in this case Keystone - and the dealership. I am also assuming that the dealership gets reimbursed or somehow paid by Keystone for warranty work. If you didn't get paid, why would you do the work?

Could you please explain to me how performing warranty work "is a money loser for the dealer"? You have stated that you "don't make any money". So I am wondering if you are "in the business to make money" why would you take on warranty work that "is a loser for the dealer"?

For me, an non-business person, this doesn't make any sense. So, please enlighten me.

You also indicate that, by doing warranty work, you are "giving away lots of good will". Does this mean that you are doing warranty work out of the goodness of your heart even though you are losing money?

I'm also puzzled by your comment that folks who did not purchase their RV at your dealership and who come to you for warranty work are "very demanding". Are they more demanding that people who bought their RV from you? What would explain the difference between these two groups of people? It seems to me that both groups come to you with something that needs "fixed" or replaced because it is either broken and doesn't work or it needs to be replaced.

Again, I am not a business person and have no experience or background in this area and am looking for an explanation about how your RV dealership and perhaps others as well lose money on warranty work.

Let me start by saying I am not trying to argue with anyone. I am simply offering a different point of view on this issue than most other folks on this forum.

When an RV comes in for a warranty repair, many customers have somewhere between 5-15 items on their list. Lets start with cabinet doors and drawers. Do you know how long they are covered by the Keystone warranty? They are covered for days 1-90 of ownership. Keystone does not even pay for these adjustments PRIOR to you getting the coach, they only cover them for the first 90 days you own it. Many times, these items are on the list the customer brings in. If you bought it from me, I am going to take care of these items on my dime if you are over 90 days old. I am not going to do if you didn't buy from me and I have had many arguments with owners on this issue that did not end well.

Here is how warranty works. You bring your RV in with your list. The service writer has to go over your list with you. This takes time(overhead). Then the dealer has to move it into a service bay. The tech starts to go over your list. Most items have to have a picture taken and a fix figured out. Then they have to move your RV out and park it somewhere while the warranty person goes to the Keystone website and submits all items, many with pictures for Keystone to approve or deny the claim. After you get the approvals and denials, you have to call the customer to let them know what won't be covered and ask them if they want it fixed. For the items that are approved, you may have to order parts for some of them. The dealer does not get to make any mark up on parts. When the parts come in, the dealer has to check them in and get them back to the service dept so they can reschedule your unit back in. It gets moved back in the shop and then the tech starts to do the repairs. Up to this point, the dealer does not get paid for anything! Now that the tech starts approved repairs, the dealer will get paid labor money for each item approved. However often times the dealer gets a wrong part so now we have to reschedule your unit and order more parts. We also have to send the wrong one back. No one pays for us to repackage and send it though they will pay the actual freight. Once we get the right part, we sometimes have to move you personal items out of the way just to work on something( ie: anything in the belly compartment like all the plumbing, heating,applicances you access from there.) Once the job is done, we have to repackage and send the parts back and file a claim. Keystone's labor amounts, while paid at our normal rate, only pay a certain amount of time for each job regardless of how long it takes. Tech's at a dealer have to work on EVERY brand out there, Keystone's techs ONLY work on Keystone product and know it much better so they can do it faster. Now we get to wait for 2-8 weeks to paid.

Now lets say that you bring your RV for non warranty maintenance. I schedule it, bring it in the shop and either perform the maintenance or repair. I may have to order a part but at least I get to make a fair margin on the part. When I am done, I call you and you come in pick it up and pay for it. No packing and sending parts back. No waiting to be paid and having to pay labor time for accounting time to track it.

I have had customers claim that their DVD player is defective. I order one, replace it and send the old one back. It works when tested at the factory and now I have had to pay for the one that went into the customers trailer, I get the old one back and I get paid no labor money. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that warranty is not a money maker or we would do it.

[sourdough]

mark1228 - I think your comments pretty much sum up what I said in my comment above yours. They are also pretty much what the GM and sales manager tell me at my dealership. From my dealings with Keystone I know they can be trying to work with. I do think that a buyer should be able to expect better treatment from a selling dealer than just "someone". That's why I try to buy most of my things from a local dealer.