First and LAST Keystone

gtinet · 04-08-2013, 06:19 PM

Purchased Sprinter Copper Canyon 333FWFLS about a month ago. Here's how it has gone so far:

Delivery day - Couldn't complete walkthrough because A/C and furnace would not work. A/C blower would not spin because roof unit was installed in a bind. Furnace blower would come on when A/C was switched on. We were also missing curtains. We could not leave with the unit.

Drove back a couple days later (140 miles round trip from home) to pick up unit. A/C blower motor was fixed. Furnace problem was fixed. Both problems were due to poor installation at the Keystone factory. Still missing curtains.

Parked unit in my yard. Expanded the slides and my wife and I enjoyed sitting in the front living room discussing our upcoming trip.

Two days later when I went in the camper to start cleaning and stocking my feet got wet while in the front living room. It had rained the day before and apparently one of the slides was leaking. The entire front carpet was wet. The storage area below was wet too. Took it back to dealer. They fixed the slide leaks and installed curtains. Problem caused by poor installation at the factory.

This past Friday we pulled out on our first trip to a state park in Missouri. Checked in, filled the fresh water tank and parked in our spot about 2:00 pm. Several hours later I noticed a small puddle under the mid-section of the camper. I crawled underneath to find the middle third of the underbelly sagging with water. After removing some screws and cutting some of the underbelly away we discovered that a screw had been run through the frame and into the vent pipe for the fresh water tank. The vent pipe attaches to the side of the fresh tank so the screw hole was siphoning water out and into the underbelly. Once again - poor installation at the factory. Keystone customer service says this one is my fault because I over filled the fresh tank!

We have been promised that all problems will be fixed as good as new. That's kind of ironic don't you think?

I am happy with our dealer and would not hesitate to send someone there, however I will never own another Keystone and will warn anyone I see to stay away.

Kevin

**JRTJH** · 04-08-2013, 07:43 PM

gtinet,

First of all,

to the forum. It sounds like you've had a round of bad luck with your RV so far. It's really sad that you're having issues like you are. Fortunately, Keystone has a pretty good reputation for standing behind their products and I'm hoping you'll end up with an RV you will enjoy using for years to come. It's unfortunate that your dealer didn't inspect and functionally check the RV thoroughly before you even tried to accept delivery. Keystone pays the dealer to perform a Pre Delivery Inspection on every unit. The purpose of that inspection is to properly prepare the RV for delivery to the customer. It includes a complete functional check of all systems and all components. The dealer's responsibility is to fill the fresh water tank, make sure all the plumbing and the waste tanks are functional and not leaking. Then to check electrical, lights, appliances, AC and Heating systems, to check all windows and doors for proper operation, as well as functionally check the slides and jacks/leveling systems. The list goes on and on. If the dealer had done his job properly, all of the items you identified (except possibly the leaking slide) would have been repaired BEFORE you ever set foot inside the RV.

At this point, work with the dealer and expect him to repair everything to your satisfaction. If he is unable or unwilling to do that, contact Keystone Customer Service and discuss your problems with them.

Remember, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, so remain calm and professional in your conversations with the dealer and with Keystone. Keep a record of who, what, when, where and why.

In a very unscientific poll recently conducted on this forum, over 92% of RV owners were satisfied with their RV and would buy another Keystone, so keep that in mind when you look to your future with your Sprinter.

John

Good luck and again, welcome to the forum.

gepaine · 04-08-2013, 08:14 PM

JRTJH,

I find it interesting that you ascribe all of the blame to the dealer and none to the Keystone factory. I'm not buying it.

And I'm also not buying another Keystone product.

x96mnn · 04-08-2013, 08:15 PM

To me it seems like the dealer dropped the ball along with Keystone. Keystone does build it and ultimately responsible but part of their quality control is the post delivery inspection, completed by the dealer. I can understand your frustration and wanting to warn away from the product but you may want to stay away from that dealer as well.

I hope everything is fixed to your satisfaction and you can begin to enjoy the rv!

**JRTJH** · 04-08-2013, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepaine

JRTJH,

I find it interesting that you ascribe all of the blame to the dealer and none to the Keystone factory. I'm not buying it.

And I'm also not buying another Keystone product.

I do ascribe all the blame to the dealer for allowing you to tow a defective RV off the lot that he hadn't properly checked out BEFORE he sold it to you. It is his responsibility to inspect and repair the RV before delivery. If it's a GLARING hunk of junk, then it's his responsiblity to make it right BEFORE it gets sold (or send it back to Keystone and not sell it). Either way, the dealer is supposed to protect your investment by not selling you a defective trailer. He gets paid by Keystone to inspect and repair the RV before delivery. Your dealer apparently didn't do his job, but I'm betting you he billed Keystone for the inspection.

After being around RV's for well over 40 years, I'm not naive enough to believe that Keystone doesn't bear any responsibility. They do share the blame. However, do you really think a "good dealer" would think (or say), "Oh well, the factory dumped this piece of garbage on my lot, so here, my "valued customer" haul it off before it falls apart. You deal with the problems, I just want your money." ???

No matter how you cut it, if "your dealer" let you tow away an RV that hadn't been checked out properly, the blame lies squarely on him for not doing his job. It is the dealer's responsibility to repair the RV (whether before you tow it off his lot or when you bring it back). Do you really think a "good" dealer waits for the customer to find problems and bring it back to him for repair or do you think a "good" dealer is proactive and finds the problems before he sells you a "defective" RV? It's his responsiblity to make you a "happy camper" just as much as it's Keystone's responsibility. If the factory didn't do their job properly, the responsibility to fix it before you tow it away lies squarely on the dealer's shoulders. If you're satisfied with his actions, then pat him on the back and shake his hand. If it were my RV, I'd be patting and shaking him somewhere else.

As for buying "my" philosophy, that's entirely up to you, and as for buying another Keystone, look to Forest River and Winnebago, I've been told they make an equally "superior" product. Spend your money where you wish. Ain't life great?

Cheers,
John

gepaine · 04-08-2013, 09:11 PM

JRTJH,

You read more into my post than was there.

I don't disagree with your position regarding dealer responsibility.

I was disagreeing with your not placing ANY blame on Keystone.

Now that you have acknowledged Keystone's responsibility, I think we are in agreement.

Regarding buying another Keystone, I gather from this forum that NO RV manufacturer places enough emphasis on quality, but since I was very dissatisfied with Keystone's quality, I might as well roll the dice and give someone else a try next time.

Cheers

therink · 04-09-2013, 03:19 AM

Sorry to hear about your issues with the new rig. I M on my second Keystone product and happy with both. I spent 3 hrs doing a pdi (using list provided on this forum). During the inspection, I found about 6 items that needed repair before I took delivery (two of which were plumbing related leaks). The dealer fixed all items on the spot and saved me the grief I would have encountered on the first trip.
There are going to be quality issues no matter what the manufacturer is. While some may be worse then others, the rv manufacturer engineering standards are not the same as auto manufacturers. The manufacturers provide a fairly hefty prep allownace to the dealers for every unit sold. A good dealer or in my case a thorough pdi performed before delivery will uncover and correct the most glaring defects.
One of the things I did dyring my PDI was overfill the fresh water and waste tanks to check for plumbing leaks. Fortunately I didnt experience any there. I did find a leaking and defective black tank flush connection.
I hope your problems are over and you can enjoy your new rig.
Steve

gtinet · 04-09-2013, 08:47 AM

Thanks to all for the feedback. I agree that the dealer bears some of the blame/responsibility. Everything except the leaking slide should have been discovered before I arrived for delivery. BUT - I also believe everything, including the leaking slide, should have been discovered and fixed at the factory before the unit was shipped.

This is my fourth RV, first Keystone. I have come to expect a few bugs even after a detailed PDI. These problems are pretty significant and speak directly to the quality of workmanship coming out of the factory.

When trading an RV one of the first questions asked by the dealer is "Have you had any leaks or water damage?". I will be honest when I answer this question and I would fully expect that to lower the value of my unit.

On the positive side... My wife and I LOVE the floorplan of this camper. We look forward to getting it back from the dealer better than new and getting back on the road.

Happy Trails,
Kevin

Edit - Additional thought regarding PDI. With an enclosed underbelly it is very difficult to find most plumbing leaks. Thorough testing at the factory would/should include testing the fresh, gray and black water systems before the underbelly is enclosed.

smiller · 04-09-2013, 09:03 AM

Keystone provides a good value (price vs. features), good floorplans, and generally good design and materials. But... execution can be terrible and sometimes it does seem like there is simply zero quality control at the factory. That is just the way it is with Keystone these days and a new owner will often be left to fix a lot of things if the dealer doesn't catch them, and with things like leaks they often don't. Since the overall value is very good for the price and I am fairly handy I can live with that, but I can easily understand why others can't.

I think Keystone should institute some kind of functional quality control program as in the end it will earn them more than it costs, but they run their business as they see fit.

Badboy · 04-09-2013, 10:51 AM

Should have got a Cougar,one of the top of the line from Keystone.

gtinet · 04-09-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badboy

Should have got a Cougar,one of the top of the line from Keystone.

Hmmm...... I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I shouldn't have to pay extra to make sure my A/C, furnace, seals and water lines are installed properly.

GaryWT · 04-09-2013, 11:24 AM

Sorry to hear of your problems and I would be bull if it happened to me. It is too bad the dealer had not checked out the heat and AC before your arrival. Also to bad these things don't get checked before they leave the factory. Unfortunately this could happen with most products and it does if you read some of the other forums of other manfucturers.

Good luck in getting everything fixed and I hope it works out in the end.

gepaine · 04-09-2013, 03:00 PM

I did get a Cougar and was not happy with the quality!

Bob Landry · 04-09-2013, 03:44 PM

I'm still scratching my head over the overfilling the water tank part. The fresh water system is basically a closed system. The only way water exits is through the pressure/pump lines, or the vent, impossible because it's above the tank, or the water fill. No other place for it to escape. Judging by some of the posts I'm reading on the KS forum, I'm wondering if Keystone has fired their customer service people and replaced them with Gilligan knock-offs.
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I had one warranty issue and that was fixed by the dealer who didn't even sell me the trailer. There were a few other minor things, but I fixed them myself and knock on wood, my trailer has been pretty much problem free.
It's sad that you have to depend on luck to get a well built trailer, but with the economy like it is, maybe it's finally come down to that.
Overfilled the tank?? Really??

BTW, where is the PDI that is often mentioned on the forum. It might be interesting to go back and see what I've missed on my trailer..

gtinet · 04-11-2013, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Landry

I'm still scratching my head over the overfilling the water tank part. The fresh water system is basically a closed system. The only way water exits is through the pressure/pump lines, or the vent, impossible because it's above the tank, or the water fill. No other place for it to escape.

Bob - The vent/overflow port is on the side of this particular tank. I'm guessing that it's an inch and a half in diameter and an inch or so down from the top. As the vent hose leaves the tank it sags down to the bottom of the frame before going up to the vent in the side of the camper. There is a screw in the vent hose near the lowest point in the sag resulting in a siphon effect.

gtinet · 04-11-2013, 07:12 AM

Edit - I know I've used the word "saturated" several times but I'm not exaggerating.

Stepped out to the camper this morning to grab a couple things and to start making a list for the dealer to fix, as requested by Keystone. Discovered that the front living carpet was saturated again from the rain last night. This time it soaked the sofabed all the way into the mattress. We've had the camper less than a month and taken one trip. Here's the problem list:

Saturated front living twice. Before and after repair.
Saturated sofabed.
Saturated storage under front living.
Paneling in front storage absorbed water.
Flooded underbelly due to screw in vent line.
DVD system switches from english to french to japanese while watching movies.
Refrigerator has loud hum and will not maintain cold during use while outside temp was mid seventies.
Water pump vibrates water lines throughout camper.
Screen falls out of bedroom window.
A/C installed incorrectly - Fixed
Furnace electrical installed incorrectly - Fixed
Missing curtains - Fixed

Question to whoever may still be following this... My front slides do not have inner seals on them. Definitely designed this way and not an accident. Have any of you had slides without inner seals?

Thanks,
Kevin

Bob Landry · 04-11-2013, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtinet

Bob - The vent/overflow port is on the side of this particular tank. I'm guessing that it's an inch and a half in diameter and an inch or so down from the top. As the vent hose leaves the tank it sags down to the bottom of the frame before going up to the vent in the side of the camper. There is a screw in the vent hose near the lowest point in the sag resulting in a siphon effect.

I have to question your explanation of the vent installation. The way you explain it, the dip in the vent hose would create a "P" trap and therefore would not have the vent effect. Secondly, no one is going to plumb a water tank so that the vent is below the top of the tank. That would prevent you from filling the tank completely. Third, even if the vent line is angled downward, it would be installed so that excess water would be dumped on the ground, not into the insulation to be absorbed there.
The water tank is filled with a hose and gravity feed, not a pressure connection and the only overflow SHOULD be from the fill cap as the vent hose should exit somewhere higher than that. Again, if that were not the case, the water would over flow before the tank was filled and it just isn't going to be installed like that unless someone screwed up at the factory. You can argue with that explanation if you like, but I've been in the marine business for 15 years and I know how a water system is supposed to be installed.

gtinet · 04-11-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Landry

I have to question your explanation of the vent installation. The way you explain it, the dip in the vent hose would create a "P" trap and therefore would not have the vent effect. Secondly, no one is going to plumb a water tank so that the vent is below the top of the tank. That would prevent you from filling the tank completely. Third, even if the vent line is angled downward, it would be installed so that excess water would be dumped on the ground, not into the insulation to be absorbed there.
The water tank is filled with a hose and gravity feed, not a pressure connection and the only overflow SHOULD be from the fill cap as the vent hose should exit somewhere higher than that. Again, if that were not the case, the water would over flow before the tank was filled and it just isn't going to be installed like that unless someone screwed up at the factory. You can argue with that explanation if you like, but I've been in the marine business for 15 years and I know how a water system is supposed to be installed.

I have a picture of the leak that might help but its too large to attach to the forum. I can send it to you if you tell me how. I've attached a basic drawing that might show you what I mean. The vent hose is white corrugated flexible plastic/vinyl. Kinda reminds me of a pool hose. It definitely runs from the fitting on the side of the fresh tank to the vent port on the side of the camper.

Kevin

Edit - Just attached small photo.

**JRTJH** · 04-11-2013, 08:24 AM

Bob,

You asked where the PDI is posted. It's in the first comment in the first thread in Keystone General Questions.

Here's the link to that thread. The link to download the PDI is in Festus2's first comment (#1)

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5129

Bob Landry · 04-11-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtinet

I have a picture of the leak that might help but its too large to attach to the forum. I can send it to you if you tell me how. I've attached a basic drawing that might show you what I mean. The vent hose is white corrugated flexible plastic/vinyl. Kinda reminds me of a pool hose. It definitely runs from the fitting on the side of the fresh tank to the vent port on the side of the camper.

Kevin

Edit - Just attached small photo.

That vent hose needs to be tied up or shortened so that it' a straight gravity drain. The way you are showing it to be is creating an air trap. I would start there.

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