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Old 05-28-2012, 07:17 PM   #41
LC Hauler
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wow, what a great warm welcome from this group, gees if I would have known I was going to start a lynch mob, being canadian and friendly I would have supplied the pitch forks and torches, heck I'd even supply the band wagon to jump on, but I'm too afraid now that with everyone on board I'd be exceeding my weight limits.

bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

if you feel that strongly that I'm out to kill everyone on the roads, well stay off them then when i come through, hell I'm so irrespnsible I may as well tow that damn thing with the propane tanks open and the dump tank cracked wide open.... woohoooooo

really guys?? can't we all just get along and enjoy the passion for the great outdoors? frankly those that welcomed me in the newbie section, thank you, those that just want to pick me and my unit apart, I think another site less stuffy in here would be more suited for me.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:57 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
Well I would hope you don't have a major amount of sag with an empty trailer, and driving close to 75 mph, is a little insane.

Lets see how it weighs out once you get the "normal stuff" loaded in it you, DW, and the kids.

Looks like a crew cab, so looks lie you are close on several counts.
Crew cab

GVWR: 6,800 pounds (4x2 and 4x4) Payload: 1,650-1,690 pounds* (4x2), 1,430-1,470 pounds* (4x4)
4x2 maximum towing capacity: 6,150-7,200 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 5,700-10,200 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)
4x4 maximum towing capacity: 5,950-7,000 pounds* (4.7-liter V-8), 7,400-9,950 pounds* (5.7-liter V-8)

Sorry but even with an ultra light, you are pushing the limits.

The part of a 1/2 ton and 5th wheels is the load on the rear axle, what is the load range of you tires, and max load on the rear axle?
So this is the 1st post I made, I did forget to state nice looking trailer, but I still stand by my concerns about the safety of the TV and the trailer.

In a thread under 5th Wheels you posted the specs for your truck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LC Hauler View Post
I can appreciate the concerns from everyone here, trust me I spent 2 days online, at my dodge dealership and on the phones with several rv dealerships, Keystone directly and even had my brother (D.O.T officer) do homework before we committed to this thing, i would have never put myself, nor anyone else in any danger nor risk a new 2011 Dodge Ram truck over a fifth wheel.

The other thing to keep in mind is the truck is an 11', which means it has the coil independent suspension,

here are the ACTUAL specs on my truck direct from Dodge:

2011 Quad Cab 4x4 - SPORT
Tire: P275/60R20
Engine: 5.7L V8 Hemi (EZH)
Transmission Type: A5
Transmission: 545RFE (DGQ) 5 SPD AUTO
Axle Ratio: 3.92
GVWR: 7,200
Payload: 1,610

Base Weight:
Total:5,343

(Front:3,107)
(Rear: 2,235)

GAWR
(Front: 3,900)
(Rear: 3,900)

GCWR: 15,500

MAX TRAILER: 11,950

now with everything there, i have gone further to ensure the saftey of my family and my rig, I have a Total Load Control system being installed this week as well.
So some of the math doesn't add up!
MAX GCWR = 15,500 - Base weight of 5,343 = 10,157 this is your MAX trailer (this is assumed this is a scaled weight of the base truck). Then that you need to subtract weight of you, DW, children, fuel, and hitch. You stated that passengers weighed a total of 267 lbs, hitch weighs about 150 lbs, and 20 gallons of gas weighs 121.43 lbs. (6.073 lbs per gallon), so that takes the Max trailer down to 9,619 lbs. Take those and the DRY pin weighs 1,120 lbs. so pay load is at least 1,658 lbs. Stated payload is 1,610 lbs.

Assuming that all of the pin and all of the fuel weight is on the rear axle, you have not exceeded the max rating of the axle.

All I know is I would not be driving 75 mph, on five lug wheels, with P rated tires, with that load.

We just want to keep you safe.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:56 PM   #43
jje1960
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Lighten up friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by LC Hauler View Post
wow, what a great warm welcome from this group, gees if I would have known I was going to start a lynch mob, being canadian and friendly I would have supplied the pitch forks and torches, heck I'd even supply the band wagon to jump on, but I'm too afraid now that with everyone on board I'd be exceeding my weight limits.

bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

if you feel that strongly that I'm out to kill everyone on the roads, well stay off them then when i come through, hell I'm so irrespnsible I may as well tow that damn thing with the propane tanks open and the dump tank cracked wide open.... woohoooooo

really guys?? can't we all just get along and enjoy the passion for the great outdoors? frankly those that welcomed me in the newbie section, thank you, those that just want to pick me and my unit apart, I think another site less stuffy in here would be more suited for me.
Well, just ones perspective (mine) however wow....., your pretty defensive here. Most have just plain read the numbers, weighed these against experience, laws and various reg's, that simple. If the advise is passionate, there is a reason. Over rated towing is a problem, legal and otherwise. What would you expect the forum to respond? Would you prefer an endless stream of "heck don't worry about it", "it's ok, limits, reg's, law's are made to be broken..." "Go for it dude!" Not sure what you expect when you post information that is going to provoke responses from experience and well, common sense. Just a thought.... How about.... "Wow, real eye-opener, thanks for your experience, maybe time to rethink our setup, thanks again!"
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jje1960 View Post
Well, just ones perspective (mine) however wow....., your pretty defensive here. Most have just plain read the numbers, weighed these against experience, laws and various reg's, that simple. If the advise is passionate, there is a reason. Over rated towing is a problem, legal and otherwise. What would you expect the forum to respond? Would you prefer an endless stream of "heck don't worry about it", "it's ok, limits, reg's, law's are made to be broken..." "Go for it dude!" Not sure what you expect when you post information that is going to provoke responses from experience and well, common sense. Just a thought.... How about.... "Wow, real eye-opener, thanks for your experience, maybe time to rethink our setup, thanks again!"
Amen brother!!

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Old 05-29-2012, 02:38 PM   #45
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One of the more troubling aspects to all of this is the RV dealers. Several years ago, I was at a major RV show looking at new rigs. We were in one that weighed well over 11K# dry. I commented to the salesman that my truck would not be a good tow vehicle. The salesman wanted to know why. I told him that it is rated to pull a 12K trailer and that this model is too heavy. He insisted that it was not. I pointed out that the GVWR needs to be considered, not the dry weight. His reply was that no one carries 1,100# of stuff with them. I replied that most of us carry a lot more than that and left.

When we bought the Cougar, the salesman would not talk about GVWR insisting that dry weight was all that they considered. Luckily, I do my own math on this kind of thing. That was almost a deal breaker.

Why is it so difficult to believe that clothing, food, camping gear, personal items, firewood, spare propane tanks, ez-up shelters, bikes, canoes and kayaks, and all the other stuff we all take with us for two weeks in the mountains or at the shore can actually weigh something?

Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by SteveC7010 View Post
One of the more troubling aspects to all of this is the RV dealers. Several years ago, I was at a major RV show looking at new rigs. We were in one that weighed well over 11K# dry. I commented to the salesman that my truck would not be a good tow vehicle. The salesman wanted to know why. I told him that it is rated to pull a 12K trailer and that this model is too heavy. He insisted that it was not. I pointed out that the GVWR needs to be considered, not the dry weight. His reply was that no one carries 1,100# of stuff with them. I replied that most of us carry a lot more than that and left.

When we bought the Cougar, the salesman would not talk about GVWR insisting that dry weight was all that they considered. Luckily, I do my own math on this kind of thing. That was almost a deal breaker.

Why is it so difficult to believe that clothing, food, camping gear, personal items, firewood, spare propane tanks, ez-up shelters, bikes, canoes and kayaks, and all the other stuff we all take with us for two weeks in the mountains or at the shore can actually weigh something?

Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.
We should start a "dry/curb weight vs scale weight" thread showing how different (or similar) these weight vary from how we as consumers option out and pack our rigs.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:31 PM   #47
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Another and equally troubling aspect to this is Keystone and other RV manufacturers who boast that this or that model is "1/2T towable" and stick a sign on it to let everyone know that it is. I would suspect that Keystone and others know full well that the majority of people who are looking for an RV already own a 1/2T and probably an F150, the best selling pickup in NA. And what weight do they use to justify their claim? You bet, the dry weight.

So here we have a potential buyer who already has a 1/2 truck and is being told by either Keystone, the dealer or both that this RV will work for you! A day later, we have a new, very pleased and proud owner driving off in his F150 with RV in tow.

Don't get me wrong. There are some TT's and 5ths that can be safely towed with a 1/2 T - Ford, GMC. Dodge or Toyota. The buyer has to do his/her own homework and research and essentially forget about what the dealer or Keystone is telling you.

Often, many potential buyers turn to forums such as ours to ask questions and get input from fellow RVers. Some have already made up their minds and hear but don't listen to the any advice given by members. Others will weigh the forum advice and make their own decision based on their own research. A few will rely totally on what advice they find here.

In this particular case, the member had his truck and his 5th wheel and, as was pointed out, volunteered other information about his setup which incidentally included his speed while on a 1 1/2 hr trip home. Many members thought that his stated speed (120 kph/75 mph) was excessive and dangerous and said so. His statement did provoke a response from a number of members, including myself, which basically said, "Slow down." I think that most people would consider towing at 75 mph to be hazardous. I would expect that someone who indicated that safety is a priority would have recognized this and should not have been surprised by the responses.

Other members commented about his combination as being close to or pushing the limits, cutting it close, or overloaded. All of these comments were made, I believe, with everyone's safety - including the poster and his family - in mind. They were not made, IMHO, with the intent of jumping all over a new member.

Hopefully we can, as was mentioned, "enjoy the great outdoors".
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:56 PM   #48
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We should start a "dry/curb weight vs scale weight" thread showing how different (or similar) these weight vary from how we as consumers option out and pack our rigs.
Do you really expect us to unload the 3,000# of stuff out of our second homes so we can find the "Dry" weight??? LOL!

I may be tempted later this summer as the "Factory Specs" on my 05 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS state the length as 31' 11" and as measured by DW and myself was more like 33' 6".

I think that if anyone that has had their rig more than one season and have gone out about six times, emptied their rig, they would be amazed at what they are hauling extra!
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:16 PM   #49
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Do you really expect us to unload the 3,000# of stuff out of our second homes so we can find the "Dry" weight??? LOL!
No. I mean comparing the published dry weight to how they're loaded when we actually use them.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:52 PM   #50
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No. I mean comparing the published dry weight to how they're loaded when we actually use them.
Well that makes it a whole bunch easier.

We are still adding stuff, I would hate to take it all out!

I thought you were looking for what the "real" dry weight of the trailer was compared to the book dry weight.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:36 PM   #51
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I may be tempted later this summer as the "Factory Specs" on my 05 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS state the length as 31' 11" and as measured by DW and myself was more like 33' 6".
It’s nice when you brag to your wife how long it is only to have her help you measure it and find out it’s even longer.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:45 PM   #52
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It’s nice when you brag to your wife how long it is only to have her help you measure it and find out it’s even longer.
LOL
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by LC Hauler View Post
.......

Bottom line here guys is in the past 5yrs, trucks in general have come leaps and bounds, with more towing capacity, pulling power etc...... and trailer manufactures are doing the same with lighter weight trailers. I'm not boasting about my unit, just excited I've come from a tent trailer to a full unit to share with my family.

..........
LC Hauler Trust me I like Canadians, but your statement got me thinking!....

How did they do it?

Well a little comparison between your 2011 1/2 ton Hemi and my 2001 3/4 ton Cummins. Some of these numbers surprised me.

This is long and has a lot of figures, but has some interesting facts. I believe that yesterday's and today's load ratings have/had more to do with HP than component capacity.

2011 Ram 1500 Hemi

Tire: P275/60R20: Load rating 2,601 lbs.
Engine: 5.7L V8 Hemi (EZH): Power (SAE): 390 hp @ 5,600 rpm; 407 ft lb of torque @ 4,000 rpm

Transmission Type: A5
Transmission: 545RFE (DGQ) 5 SPD AUTO
Axle Ratio: 3.92
GVWR: 7,200 - 5,343 = 1857 - 150 (driver) = 1,707 (Payload)
Payload: 1,610 ??

Base Weight: (is this actual scaled weight)?
Total:5,343
(Front:3,107)
(Rear: 2,235)

GAWR
(Front: 3,900)
(Rear: 3,900); 3,900 - 2,235 = 1,665 (Max load on rear axle before axle Over Load)

3,900 + 3,900 = 7,800 7,200/7,800 = 92.3% of total max axle load.
Total max axle divided by stated GVWR = percentage of axle max.

GCWR: 15,500: 15,500 - 5,493 (truck and driver) = 10,700 max trailer
GCWR-GVW = Max Trailer

MAX TRAILER: 11,950 ???


2001 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Quad Cab With Tow and Camper packages

Tire: LT 265/75 16 E: Load rating 3,415 lbs.
Engine: 5.9L I6 Cummins: Power (SAE): 235 hp @ 2700 rpm; 460 lb-ft (from 1600 to 2700 rpm)
The engine has a small chip " Power Puck" so I now have about 285 HP and 510 lb-ft of torque.

Transmission Type: NV4500
Transmission: NV4500 5 speed manual
Axle Ratio: 3.55
GVWR: 8,800 - 7,000 = 1,800 With driver (Payload)
Payload: Searched could not find a "stated Payload" 1,800 actual caculated.

Base Weight: (This actual scaled weight, with driver 200#)
Total:7,000
(Front:4,250)
(Rear: 2,750)

GAWR
(Front: 5,200)
(Rear: 6,080): 6,080 - 2,750 = 3,330 (Max load on rear axle before axle Over Load)
5,200+ 6,080 = 11,280 8,800/11,280 = 78.0% of total max axle load.
Total max axle divided by stated GVWR = percentage of axle max.

This is where it get interesting, according to the owners manual!
2500 Quad cab 4X4 GCWR = 16,000#
2500 Reg Cab 4X4 GCWR = 20,000# ??? The added weight of the Quad Cab should come off Max trailer not GCWR.

GCWR: 16,00 16,000 - 7,000 (truck and driver) = 9,000 max trailer
GCWR: 20,000 20,000 - 7,000 (truck and driver) = 13,000 max trailer

So when I scaled on the 1st two nigher, with 3 adults, 2 small dogs, and too much food in the refer, and about 95% of our "stuff" these are my scale weights.

Front axle 4,650#: (4,650/5,200 = 89% of max axle rating)(4,650/6,830 = 68% of max tire rating) (Darn heavy Cummins!)
Rear axle 5,050#: (5,050/6,080 = 83 % of max axle rating)(5,050/6,830 = 74% of max tire rating)
Total Truck 9,700#
Trailer axles 8,400 #
GCVW 18,100#

So am I over loaded by the book? Yes
Are my axles overloaded? NO
Are my tires over loaded? NO
If I used the 92.3% of max axle weight the GVW could be 10,400#, and I still would not be exceeding the max load on the tires.

I tow this rig between 55 and 60 based on the speed limit, on the flat if not paying attention to speed and going with the flow a bit, it will easily creep up to 70 (too easily!), I can pull most grades in the Oregon Coast range at 60 mph which is 5 over the limit (I don't like holding up traffic, and it is a sweet spot for RPM). I can also accelerate to the speed limit going up those grades. I will continue to go with this combination, as it feels solid and stable. When we picked it up our tow home was 250 miles, in less than favorable weather, and I had no issues.

So now you can pick on the Yank.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:16 PM   #54
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What DOT cares about is that no axle in combination is overloaded, as well as no tires are over there max weight carrying capacity. If these are all good and you are pulling an _RV_...... then there will be no issues, as far as weight goes.

The well laid out numbers are indeed something to ponder.

The HEMI as most V8(newer) gas motors needs to REV to get anywhere near its torque peak. It will not hurt them, that how they are built.

The beauty of the Ford V6 turbo is that it has the torque output of a V8 (approx 400 ftlb IIRC)but at a much lower(usable) 2400rpm. My hat is begrudgingly off to this new engine + powertrain.
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Old 06-04-2012, 05:53 AM   #55
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SteveC7010 wrote

Quote:
Sales people will tell us anything to make the sale. They'll swear that the pin weight is actually a lot less. They will tell you that whatever truck you own is more adequate for the trailer you want.


I could not agree more. I actually had my truck salesman state I could add another 1500lbs to the payload and still be safe even though I am at or over the limit now.
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