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Old 01-03-2012, 01:10 PM   #1
geo
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Arctic/Polar/Glacier Tank Enclosure Observations

First comes the Disclaimer: All views and observations expressed are personal and based upon examination of one particular unit of the Keystone Alpine 3640RL. Etc., etc., etc.

+++++++++++++++++

Earlier this year, there were quite a few threads inquiring about the Keystone "Arctic", "Glacier", "Polar", etc., tank enclosures. On my Alpine, the reference is to the "Arctic R-37 Therma Shield". In the earlier threads, there was much speculation, some partial direct observation, and a lot of hope and assumption as to what this "package" was and what it meant. I believe I can partially answer these inquiries based upon my own direct observation AT THIS TIME.

Method: I am in the process of installing the UltraHeat tank heaters on my Alpine 3640RL. Though I had big plans to get this installation completed during my "use it or lose it" vacation days at the end of the year (blessed with balmy weather), my plans were modified by my own RV modifications. This I will post later in a separate thread under Modifications. I can only describe what I observed for the forward tanks in the drop-down sub-basement beneath the storage compartment on my Alpine. This would be the area holding the 50 gallon Black Water tank on the "street side" and a 50 gallon gray water tank (shower/lavatory/washer if installed) on the "curb side". By the way, this also indicates that the "Gray 1" tank in my Alpine is 50 gallons, which means the "Gray 2" tank (kitchen) is 32 gallons.

Once I removed about half the screws holding the coroplast on the front tank area, I could tell there was not much to the "Arctic R-37 Therma Shield" for the forward waste tanks. These tanks are located between the two I-beam frame members and supported by a central square tubular member between the tanks and a V-shaped cross member between the two I-beams. The tanks are black plastic and have a flat top that extends well beyond the tank area to become the tank support on the upper beam units. From the bottom up, the base is the common black coroplast, the foil-lined bubble wrap, and a small sheet of white R-7 white fiberglass insulation that covers about 50% of the area beneath the tanks. There is one 2 ˝ inch (6.35cm) flexible aluminum heater duct that comes off the furnace that has T-connections next to the two drain valves and continues on rearward (and out of sight). In the attached photo, you can see the black tanks, the beam members, the aluminum ducting along with the foil lined bubble wrap and insulation. (Note the foil lined bubble wrap caused confusion with the camera focus.)

It is obvious to me that the "R-37" in the package title has nothing to do with insulation qualities. The best explanation I can come up with is "3 layers with an R-7 layer". I realize that Keystone likes to reference the foil backed bubble wrap for its insulating qualities. However, from my own personal experience, I observe that the foil backed bubble wrap is best used for/against radiant heat transfer, that leaves it only minimally useful against conduction or convection heat transfer. I would dare say that when dealing with the under-carriage tanks, heat loss from conduction and convection would be more prevalent than radiant. The steel beams offer no insulation qualities by themselves. The shared heat that comes from the two T-connections on the 2 ˝ inch duct would add minimal heat to this large open area. Besides, the open duct of the T-connection is only next to the tank drain valves – crudely "directed" to provide warmed air to those valves.

Immediately forward of the tank area are two cross-I-beam members. These I-beams are separated by approximately 4 feet (1.2m) and are only covered from below by the coroplast. Above is the plywood floor of the storage basement area. This creates a space approximately 4 feet by 6 feet by about 10 inches (1.2m x 1.8m x 25cm). The RV-forward edge of the coroplast is sealed with black silicon caulk. The other three sides of the coroplast on this and the tank compartment are not sealed, though around the rear tank valve area, green foam insulation has been applied to "seal" the waste lines exiting to the drain hose.

I am by no means an expert on insulation of any type. But I believe I do know enough about the "science of insulation" and thermodynamics to be able to say, there is little to prevent these tanks from freezing when temperatures drop below freezing. True, if the furnace is running as the temperature drops, warmed air will be supplied to the tank valve area. But this area is also adjacent to "cold steel" and small openings around the coroplast and the sheet metal back compartment member. Even if the storage compartment walls were removed to allow access to the basement, an electric heater located in the storage compartment would only minimally supply heat to these tanks.

The Alpine is noted for its well insulated floor, walls, and roof. When the basement panels are removed, it is very impressive to see an 8 inch (20cm) sheet of Styrofoam with thick plywood above and below it. Yes, the floor is well insulated! But the forward tank enclosure is in direct air communication with the open area of the basement and via the stair vents, the cabin of the Alpine. This communication is allowed by several cut access areas and the open area immediately behind the WaterWorks. Cold air from the tank enclosure area can invade the cabin area quite easily.

Admittedly, the warm air is less dense and will tend to "float" in the cabin area (like a hot air balloon). However, this again works in favor of freezing the forward holding tanks. But in the summer, this becomes a different problem. The cooler air we all desire in the Texas summer is denser and tends to sink to the lowest level – the forward tank enclosure. And these same reasons of why the tank might freeze work against cooling the RV.

In a few months, I will tackle the fresh water and Gray 2 tank area. At that time, I'll let you know what I find.

Ron
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:05 PM   #2
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Excellent write up, Ron! You've totally confirmed what I have suspected about what is on the other side of the coroplast. Our Cougar has the "Polar Package" which is undoubtedly the same (or nearly so) as your Arctic package.

One of my thoughts about the exposed heat duct is that because it is partially located in an unheated area, there is a lot of heat robbed by the cold air space.

There are a lot of different insulating materials that are readily available to enhance what is already there. The one product I'd counsel folks to stay away from is fiberglass batts because they can hold moisture too easily and I am pretty sure it would be difficult to insure a low moisture environment in the belly pan.

Keep us posted!
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:56 PM   #3
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Steve -

Thanks! However, as you will soon learn, I didn't get your advice. . I would like to hopefully modify your advice based upon something I noticed in the DRV line of fivers. Use unfaced fiberglass batts and rolls. Though moisture won't flow through them like a river, they will "breathe" very slowly.

I didn't mention earlier, and should have (thank you for jogging my memory), when I pulled the coroplast off, about a cup of water flowed out and across my cardboard "crawl sheet". I spent almost a half hour searching for "the leak" until I noticed condensate on the upper part of the tanks. I would also suspect that the cool metal surfaces on all sides would provide a condensation surface also. Makes perfect sense now. During the night, the tanks will cool down. With the air circulating (whether by furnace or by my circulation modification), moist air from the living quarters will find its way to the lower tank area. Warm moist air hitched up with cool tank and/or metal surface ... At least my initial thought of "Black Tank Leak!" was quickly put to rest. Whew! So as you will soon see, I believe that unfaced fiberglass batts and rolls will actually reduce tank-side condensation. What do you think?

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Old 01-03-2012, 04:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo View Post
So as you will soon see, I believe that unfaced fiberglass batts and rolls will actually reduce tank-side condensation. What do you think?
Ron,

I have personal reservations about fiberglass because of the moisture problems encountered in homes that have moisture migration issues in the walls and ceilings. Once it gets saturated, it is very difficult to dry out and it loses 95% of its insulating properties. Enclosing it in the belly of a trailer with the coroplast cover pretty much guarantees that once moisture gets in, it will be difficult to control or remove.

But that said, if it can be kept dry, it might just do the trick. It's cheap, easy to work with, and can be sized and shaped for almost any space.

I am looking at products like Great Stuff foam in a can to deal with areas that could be permanently insulated without the expectation of removing the insulation every now and then for routine maintenance. It is available in both expanding and non-expanding formulas.

For large, flat areas where the insulation might need to be dropped away to deal with maintenance or repairs, the blue closed cell foam insulating panels seem to be a good choice. They can be cut with bread knife and will not absorb water. It comes in a variety of thicknesses and is not particularly expensive.

There are also the foil backed insulation sheets. You can get them in both the "bubble pack" style and also on thin (1/4" +) foam. Guys to do vinyl siding on homes use the stuff all the time.

Foam pipe insulation looks to be real good for hoses and pipes for extra insulation and noise reduction. I can even see using it to fill small cavities here and there all by itself.

I am reluctant to seal up the coroplast to prevent water from getting it. I am more considering finding the low spots and cutting small holes to allow any accumulated water to drain away. That would also give fairly early warning if a leak occurs somewhere out of sight behind the belly pan.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:46 PM   #5
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Steve -

I do agree with your thoughts and advice. I would love to get the spray foam applied to fill the area, reduce condensation, and just insulate the bejeebers out of the tanks. But I also wanted to get finished to take advantage of the great weather this past weekend!

I think the forward edge of the coroplast is sealed to prevent water and road chemicals from entering the void area and tank compartment. Even with mud flaps, when its wet, The Beast can really send a spray tail behind it!

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Old 01-04-2012, 08:11 PM   #6
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I have an "entry level" fifth wheel and there's even less insulation "advertised" and installed in it than in yours. When I crawled under mine, there wasn't even any coroplast except right directly under the fresh water tank. Living in Michigan, I immediately questioned my "sanity" in buying an RV with such little insulation. Now, from what you've said, there isn't much difference in mine and yours except for a "pretty sheet of "foam/foil" and the coroplast.

Anyway, this fall before hunting season, I decided I had to do something to fix the problem. My solution was to buy coroplast from Keystone (through the dealer) and have it shipped in a new unit coming to the dealer (to save on delivery charges). I bought 1" and 1.5" blue structural foam panels from Lowes and cut the 1.5" to fit vertically along the inside of the I beams on the frame. Then I cut the 1" to fit between the I beams and fixed them in place with plastic duct tape. Then I added a sheet of foil/bubble over all the rigid foam. if I calculated correctly, the original floor had R9 insulation. the 1" blue foam is about R6 and the foil/bubble is about R2 and the coroplast is about R2. So I should now have about an R19 floor, part above the tanks and part below. I guess it's R9 above and R10 below, Also R9 foam panels on the insides of the I beams. I still have to figure out a way to enclose the edges of the belly from the I beams to the trailer side walls. I've been thinking aluminum roll flashing, but I have to wait until spring. It was 1F this morning and got all the way up to 16 today. I don't think I'd want to crawl around under the trailer even if it was close enough to get to it LOL

I would be reluctant to use fiberglass insulation in the belly especially with all the water entry gaps that Keystone leaves in the coroplast... On our Airstream, the floor was constructed much like the walls. It had "hand stuffed" pink fiberglass (no backing) in the walls and the floor. The big difference with that trailer and Keystone's is that the underbelly was pretty much a sealed unit on the airstream. There was a vent in the back storage compartment that allowed the heated air from the "basement vents" to escape. That airflow kept the belly dry because of the hot air forced in by the furnace registers and circulated out that vent in the back compartment. I have nothing like that on my trailer and from what I've read and seen, except for the limited heat ducting around the tanks, Keystone doesn't have any "planned basement heating system" If there were a way to seal against moisture intrusion, then the fiberglass would be ideal (kind of like a Thermos bottle) but without that moisture prevention, any condensation will decrease R value rapidly. That's the last thing we need on a cold wet windy January night.
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:17 PM   #7
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To expand on what Steve said about using spray foam. Here is an option others may consider.

It is a do it yourself sprayfoam kit. It comes in various sizes and sq/ft coverages.

It would easily be a weekend project to use this product. Probably a day or less including tear down and reasembiling.

The product is made by Dow and the kit is called a "froth pak "

Available at your local hardware store. usually by special order.

http://building.dow.com/na/en/produc...n/frothpak.htm

I have used this product and it is very easy to apply and dry time is extremely fast.

The last kit I bought was the 620 and it cost me 800.00CDN . It was money well spent.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:42 AM   #8
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JRTJH -

Thanks for the info about Airstream! I know what DRV does with their tank heater installation with hand packed pink unfaced fiberglass insulation. You have given me a great idea on how to modify my air circulation system when I change out the fan. If I can complete this chore on the weekend, I'll post it next week.

I started having second thoughts about filling the area with spray foam. What happens if a tank leaks? And what happens if condensation drops over the tanks and pools beneath them on the foam?

To be continued ...

Ron
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:47 AM   #9
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Ron, I agree completely with your concerns regarding spray foam. Once it's installed, it's pretty much permanent, so if it's used, consider it a one time, can't remove it sort of modification. In some places, it's probably a good deal, but anywhere access may be needed in the future, it can pose a significant problem to remove. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea even on the frame. Imagine needing to check for corrosion, cracks, bad/loose welds at crossmembers, etc... The foam panels, although they don't "form fit" as well, at least can be removed, and then reinstalled once the acces is no longer required.

I had thought about installing an air channel in my newly formed basement and venting the floor ducting into that space to heat the entire space around the tanks. All I'd need to do is to cut a small vent hole into the front storage compartment so the heated air pressure would have a way to escape after circulating around the tanks and valves.

My trailer is in a pole barn about 40 miles from here, so I can't just walk over and look/plan things. I'm doing this post from memory of what is there and I have no doubt I'll wind up rethinking it through several more times before the ice melts and it's warm enough to drag that thing back home.... LOL

I'm very interested in what you come up with, who knows, between all the ideas being presented, there's got to be an answer for all of our needs....

John
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Old 04-02-2015, 12:48 PM   #10
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Blizard Package disapointment

I paid extra for the package because I did not want weather to dictate when and where I can camp. After reading these post I thought of when I was living in New England and everyone had either a block heater connected into the cooling system or oil pan mat heater. Why wouldn't the mat heaters work? You could plug them into campground power and rune tower electric heaters to save propane. Any thoughts? The only danger I could think of would be the chance of the mat melting the tank or fire but the mat does not get that hot.
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Old 04-02-2015, 01:27 PM   #11
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As long as the tank is the only thing you need to protect, heat mats would probably help, but when you consider the 1.5" or 3" PVC pipe that leads from the tank to the collection collars and then to the valves, should they freeze, it doesn't much matter if the tank is frozen or not. So, if you're going to "remove heat from the basement area" you need to consider not only preventing the tanks from freezing, you also need to consider all the plumbing in the waste water containment, but also the hot/cold fresh water plumbing that is in the basement and adjacent to the outside walls of the trailer. We've got documentation of pipes freezing behind the shower walls, in interior cabinet spaces and in long runs along the frame members in the basement. So, it's not just the tanks you need to protect.

I don't know of any Keystone product that is suitable for sustained use in below 0F temperatures. Even the Montana with its "zero degree package" doesn't say it's sustainable at that temperature, the claim is: "Gives the ultimate in four season usage" It doesn't claim to be comfortable, or even usable, nor does it claim that pipes won't freeze, just that it's the "ultimate".... With R11 sidewalls and single pane windows, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the claim to actually represent that you can live comfortably in it in 0 degree temps for the winter. At least not without a lot of preparation and a lot of understanding about just what "comfortable" really means.
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Old 04-02-2015, 01:42 PM   #12
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I've wondered if Styrofoam peanuts or beads would work for insulation around the water tanks. Might have to use some plastic netting to hold them in place while you put the chloroplast back.
Maybe a radiant barrier like a camping "space blanket" directly under the tanks.
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Old 04-02-2015, 02:26 PM   #13
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Keystone installed a "radiant barrier" in your trailer (I believe). It's the aluminum backed bubble wrap. On Cougars (and I believe on all standard/premium models), it's pretty much the "standard build".

Here's a few pictures of the way Cougar does it. You can clearly see how the bubble wrap lays between the coroplast and the bottom of the tanks. All of them are run down the line pretty much the same way.

As for Styrofoam peanuts, they may insulate the tanks to prevent heat from getting to them from that 2" heat duct and do more harm than good ???? Just my thought, I could be wrong on that.....
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Old 04-02-2015, 03:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Keystone installed a "radiant barrier" in your trailer (I believe). It's the aluminum backed bubble wrap. On Cougars (and I believe on all standard/premium models), it's pretty much the "standard build".

Here's a few pictures of the way Cougar does it. You can clearly see how the bubble wrap lays between the coroplast and the bottom of the tanks. All of them are run down the line pretty much the same way.

As for Styrofoam peanuts, they may insulate the tanks to prevent heat from getting to them from that 2" heat duct and do more harm than good ???? Just my thought, I could be wrong on that.....
I still have my rig belly open crawling around and enjoying the humor associated with seeing how things are run I have a similar concern about insulation and if installed are you helping or hurting the installed heated air flow. My Raptor has the EXTREME Package and I am still trying to figure out where this extreme is By adding insulation am I preventing this induced belly heating from the tanks, water lines etc. I assume with this foil they are somehow taking credit for reflecting heat in the basement So does that meaning adding some insulation on top of the coroplast will help or hurt?? May just close up and leave as is
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:10 PM   #15
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I insulated the underbelly of my Springdale. It was WIDE OPEN with no coroplast installed. The holding tanks were wide open to the atmosphere. So anything I did was an improvement over the way it was built. But, with the enclosed underbelly on the Cougar, there's coroplast, bubble wrap, a 2" heat duct pointed at the fresh water tank and the 4" "dryer vent ducting" that meanders through the belly (I think) also provides some heat to the space.

Honestly, with all the exposed metal framework, holes drilled/cut throughout the space, lack of any "significant insulation" I don't think adding any one thing would improve much over the heat losses that are readily apparent.

I suppose someone could spend some very diligent effort (Geo did that) and improve the overall situation, but in the final analysis, he elected to just sell his Alpine and move on to another fifth wheel that was constructed with "cold temperature living" as an objective, not as a "maybe we can market this too" concept......

Is trying to make a Keystone "arctic worthy" similar to making a "silk purse" ???? Not that I'm calling our RV's a "sow's ear"... but................
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:46 PM   #16
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John, I got a little peep at that bubble wrap. When my bumper was modified the welder had to trim a little of the sheet metal that wraps from the side to the bottom. I used some crazy foam to fill the resulting voids.
Only way to do it would be pull all the chloroplast off and do a complete assessment. It's just not worth it to me.
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:55 PM   #17
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Brent,

I feel pretty much the same. We aren't going to use the trailer past deer season. After that it will be put in the pole barn until spring or until we head south to some place above 60 F, so it's just not worth trying to "accomplish the impossible" by taking it all down, trying to insulate things that need to stay "light and dry" and then reinstalling it all while trying to seal all the numerous holes. For me, to heck with it, I'll use it like it is and just burn a little more propane. When it's "that cold" my "southern behind" is gonna be inside, not in an RV stuck in the boonies anyway.
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